Statement of disappointment

[Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>]

    I have been a NetBeans user since inception.  I am retired now, but when I worked, I was one of the few people in my company that was an advocate of NetBeans, and used it instead of the company line, Eclipse product.

    Retired now for 10+ years, I used NetBeans to develop my products, and really getting involved in JavaFX big time. I love the cross platform capability, and use it on both Ubuntu and Windows.  Raspberry Pi, no problem.  Windows, no problem.  I loved it. Then boom, Oracle takes JavaFX out of the mix, and NetBeans and I start having major problems. It gets harder and harder to use NetBeans with it’s incompatibility with JavaFX without going through hoops every single time we upgrade.  I have a ton of projects that are a major pain to go back to without having to dance on a high wire to get to work.  And I am still not sure I can do this anymore.  

    I have been a computer programmer, designer and architect for well over 53+ years.  I have see many systems come and go, many IDE rise and fall, many languages surface and crash.  The move to Maven is beyond my scope now.  I want to program, not to have to regenerate and rehash my build system every release.  I have tried to move over to 11, and mostly failed.  I have too many modules and programs in play to hack this out.

    It would have been great if NetBeans had a seamless transition , built in conversions for old projects to current format.  Seriously, I would love to be on that train.  But nope, it seems too much handholding and dancing.  I currently have a half dozen active Beta’s  that are stuck in a NetBeans 8.1.x / Java 8 scenario, that I want to port into NetBeans 11.3 / Java 13+ area, but really don’t believe that it is 1: Easy, 2: Lasting, 3: Enduring more than another release.

    I still have reported bugs > 5 years old that are not resolved.

    I see streams of notes that are asking questions about compatibility.  ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I see how once the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off is almost impossible.  If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this is a good trend.  If you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more than just an annoyance.  It almost easier to find another IDE to settle in on, as the amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably more, from old NetBeans to new NetBeans is formidable.

    Maybe a 3rd party can produce a product that 100% transfer old projects to Maven..  I’d rather develop and code than mess around with trying to make things move up the NetBeans chain anymore..  Coding is fun, transitioning is not. I am 100% committed to JavaFX, I like the layouts, I like what Gluon has done, I like the look and feel.

    NetBeans 8 –> NetBeans 11+ –> convert ...

    I would normally apologize for my rant, but nope. I feel that I am now progressing backwards...

Re: Statement of disappointment

[bm...@hemstech.com]

All:

Been reading all the emails on the NB migration. I do JAVA on NB 8.0.2
platform and have not upgraded due to the issues being address. I do okay
with the NB 8. If this is so critical for getting program done for
clients, then one should be willing to pay for the platform. See it as a
business expense and write it off at tax time. Normally, tools are
included in the cost of a job -so I'm miffed as to the expectations
placing the onus on NB development to resolve things at no cost. NB is a
great platform and this is merely a transitional period for it, so I stay
with my current platform and wait until the dust settles --or pay for the
upgrade with support if my situation changes. While NB has many issues, it
will eventually resolve the main ones or become a dust covered relic with
passing memories.


Bill



> Indeed, I think the approach Emilian suggests is the way to go. And,
> indeed, if you don't want to or have the time to move to Maven of Gradle,
> then a lot of modern options start closing off to you.
>
> But, on a different level, for a lot of users of NetBeans, the chickens
> have come home to roost: a free and open source project, such as NetBeans,
> should never simply have been 'used', it should always have been invested
> in. For example, simply filing a bug and hoping someone will turn up to
> fix
> it has never been the way open source is meant to work.
>
> Nothing is ever free -- either you spend time (in understanding how
> NetBeans works, for example) or money (in paying JetBrains, for example,
> and then you have engineers creating IntelliJ IDEA for you). Not spending
> anything at all and hoping things will work out for you has never been a
> sustainable approach.
>
> Gjj
>
> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 4:24 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Go and pick Azul Zulu' JDK FX package which comes bundles with JavaFX:
>>
>> https://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu-community/?&architecture=x86-64-bit&package=jdk-fx
>>
>> I used it for an older Platform app where I don't feel like
>> configuring the FX mumbo jumbo.
>>
>> I doubt anybody can make a magic transition tools since there's too
>> much people can customize...
>>
>> Given the resources available, things are as they are. They could
>> always be better.
>>
>> --emi
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 5:16 PM Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >     I have been a NetBeans user since inception.  I am retired now,
>> but
>> when I worked, I was one of the few people in my company that was an
>> advocate of NetBeans, and used it instead of the company line, Eclipse
>> product.
>> >
>> >     Retired now for 10+ years, I used NetBeans to develop my products,
>> and really getting involved in JavaFX big time. I love the cross
>> platform
>> capability, and use it on both Ubuntu and Windows.  Raspberry Pi, no
>> problem.  Windows, no problem.  I loved it. Then boom, Oracle takes
>> JavaFX
>> out of the mix, and NetBeans and I start having major problems. It gets
>> harder and harder to use NetBeans with it’s incompatibility with
>> JavaFX
>> without going through hoops every single time we upgrade.  I have a ton
>> of
>> projects that are a major pain to go back to without having to dance on
>> a
>> high wire to get to work.  And I am still not sure I can do this
>> anymore.
>> >
>> >     I have been a computer programmer, designer and architect for well
>> over 53+ years.  I have see many systems come and go, many IDE rise and
>> fall, many languages surface and crash.  The move to Maven is beyond my
>> scope now.  I want to program, not to have to regenerate and rehash my
>> build system every release.  I have tried to move over to 11, and mostly
>> failed.  I have too many modules and programs in play to hack this out.
>> >
>> >     It would have been great if NetBeans had a seamless transition ,
>> built in conversions for old projects to current format.  Seriously, I
>> would love to be on that train.  But nope, it seems too much handholding
>> and dancing.  I currently have a half dozen active Beta’s  that are
>> stuck
>> in a NetBeans 8.1.x / Java 8 scenario, that I want to port into NetBeans
>> 11.3 / Java 13+ area, but really don’t believe that it is 1: Easy, 2:
>> Lasting, 3: Enduring more than another release.
>> >
>> >     I still have reported bugs > 5 years old that are not resolved.
>> >
>> >     I see streams of notes that are asking questions about
>> compatibility.  ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I see how
>> once
>> the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off is almost
>> impossible.  If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this is a good trend.
>> If
>> you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more than
>> just
>> an annoyance.  It almost easier to find another IDE to settle in on, as
>> the
>> amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably more, from old
>> NetBeans
>> to new NetBeans is formidable.
>> >
>> >     Maybe a 3rd party can produce a product that 100% transfer old
>> projects to Maven..  I’d rather develop and code than mess around with
>> trying to make things move up the NetBeans chain anymore..  Coding is
>> fun,
>> transitioning is not. I am 100% committed to JavaFX, I like the layouts,
>> I
>> like what Gluon has done, I like the look and feel.
>> >
>> >     NetBeans 8 –> NetBeans 11+ –> convert ...
>> >
>> >     I would normally apologize for my rant, but nope. I feel that I am
>> now progressing backwards...
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>>
>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>
>>
>


Bill Melendez, Founder & CEO, MBA
HEMS Technology
www.hemstech.com
www.linkedin.com/in/billmelendez
bmelendez@hemstech.com
817-932-0047


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org

For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists

Re: Statement of disappointment

["John G. Weed" <no...@fastmail.com>]

For whatever my two cents are worth, I agree.

Sincerely,

John .G Weed
Cicero Systems, LLC <http://www.cicerosystems.us/>
*"Reason. Resolve. Respond"*
(571) 277-9998

*"Steal a man's reputation for probity, and the more shrewd and clever he is, the more hated and mistrusted he'll become." *Marcus Tullius Cicero (106BC-43BC)

*Confidentiality Notice:* The information contained in this electronic transmission is privileged and confidential and is intended only for the recipient(s) named above. If the reader of this message is not the recipient(s) named above, or an authorized agent of such recipient(s) responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that you have received this electronic transmission in error. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this electronic transmission including any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately.


On Sat, Mar 14, 2020, at 09:21, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
> Indeed.
> 
> It seems clear to me that we need something like what this is for TomEE: tomitribe.com <https://www.tomitribe.com/>
> 
> An entity outside Apache to support the development of NetBeans, e.g., look at this company description, replace all "TomEE" with "NetBeans" and you have what people in this thread are looking for, I believe:
> 
> https://www.tomitribe.com/company/
> 
> Gj
> 
> On Sat, Mar 14, 2020 at 2:07 PM <bm...@hemstech.com> wrote:
>> All:
>> 
>>  I think we need a platform for making the payments to the NB development
>>  --something like crowdsource but independent of any other platform to
>>  eliminate the fees and costs. I for one will be willing to make monthly
>>  dollar contributions. NB is too good of a platform to let it go under due
>>  to internal issues.
>> 
>> 
>>  > Geertjan and All --
>>  >
>>  > Not a problem! To whom and where should the check be sent?
>>  >
>>  > -- Chris
>>  >
>>  > ----- Original Message -----
>>  > From: Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
>>  > To: Chris Olsen <co...@mchsi.com>
>>  > Cc: Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>, John Mc
>>  > <mc...@gmail.com>, Netbeans Mailing List
>>  > <us...@netbeans.apache.org>, Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>,
>>  > Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net>, Thomas Wolf <tj...@gmail.com>,
>>  > bmelendez@hemstech.com
>>  > Sent: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 15:22:45 -0400 (EDT)
>>  > Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
>>  >
>>  > Sure! If you’re not willing/able to participate in NetCAT yourself:
>>  >
>>  > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/NetCAT+12.0
>>  >
>>  > ...would you be interested in sponsoring others to do so, at say $50 per
>>  > person per NetCAT test spec?
>>  >
>>  > Gj
>>  >
>>  > On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 20:01, Chris Olsen <co...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>>  >
>>  >> Thomas and All --
>>  >>
>>  >> Mine is much the same story. Would there be some way to contribute
>>  >> $$$
>>  >> (or, in my case, $$) to the team meaningfully?
>>  >>
>>  >> -- Chris
>>  >>
>>  >> ----- Original Message -----
>>  >> From: Thomas Wolf <tj...@gmail.com>
>>  >> To: John Mc <mc...@gmail.com>
>>  >> Cc: Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net>, bmelendez@hemstech.com, Geertjan
>>  >> Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>,
>>  >> Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>, Netbeans Mailing List <
>>  >> users@netbeans.apache.org>
>>  >> Sent: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 14:10:11 -0400 (EDT)
>>  >> Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
>>  >>
>>  >> My $.02,
>>  >> I’ve been benefitting from NB since I moved over from Visual Cafe in
>>  >> 1999
>>  >> (to give you an idea of what a Java dinosaur I am). And my only
>>  >> contributions in 2+ decades have been bug reports (most of which now lie
>>  >> forgotten somewhere in the bowels of the old Bugzilla system) and 1-2
>>  >> NetCAT participations. I have always been willing to pay for this
>>  >> excellent tool but never had the desire (or time) to improve it myself.
>>  >> In the early days, I once downloaded it with the faint hope of
>>  >> correcting
>>  >> a minor bug - but didn’t even succeed in building it. For me at
>>  >> least,
>>  >> the time it takes to get high enough on the learning curve to contribute
>>  >> meaningfully is more than I have been willing to invest (maybe that’ll
>>  >> change after I retire in a few years).
>>  >>
>>  >> But like I said, I’ve always been more than happy to pay for the tool.
>>  >> I
>>  >> wonder if it’s too late for NB to introduce such an
>>  >> alternative/additional
>>  >> model? Just a thought.
>>  >>
>>  >> Best regards,
>>  >> Tom
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >> > On Mar 13, 2020, at 9:51 AM, John Mc <mc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>  >> >
>>  >> > 
>>  >> > But instead of looking at this financial payment, why not consider an
>>  >> time/effort payment?
>>  >> >
>>  >> > At present, I cant really talk, I've been busy, and have provided
>>  >> anything back to NetBeans in a while but then I don't have any issues
>>  >> that
>>  >> are negatively effecting me. If and when I do I will hopefully try to
>>  >> address them, like I have tried to in the past.
>>  >> >
>>  >> > The way I see it, if we could find out what exactly is blocking people
>>  >> from moving to 11.3/12, and then if they can spend even a small amount
>>  >> of
>>  >> time/effort into looking at these we can get to an even better NetBeans
>>  >> product.
>>  >> >
>>  >> > John
>>  >> >
>>  >> >> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 13:34, Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net>
>>  >> wrote:
>>  >> >> Agreed, NetBeans is worth paying for....
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> I am with Bill, I have not upgraded and I am at 9 similar to 8.
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> Rob
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> -----Original Message-----
>>  >> >> From: bmelendez@hemstech.com [mailto:bmelendez@hemstech.com]
>>  >> >> Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 9:30 AM
>>  >> >> To: Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
>>  >> >> Cc: Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>; Paul Szudzik <
>>  >> pszudzik@throwarock.com>; Netbeans Mailing List
>>  >> <users@netbeans.apache.org
>>  >> >
>>  >> >> Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> All:
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> Been reading all the emails on the NB migration. I do JAVA on NB
>>  >> 8.0.2
>>  >> platform and have not upgraded due to the issues being address. I do
>>  >> okay
>>  >> with the NB 8. If this is so critical for getting program done for
>>  >> clients,
>>  >> then one should be willing to pay for the platform. See it as a business
>>  >> expense and write it off at tax time. Normally, tools are included in
>>  >> the
>>  >> cost of a job -so I'm miffed as to the expectations placing the onus on
>>  >> NB
>>  >> development to resolve things at no cost. NB is a great platform and
>>  >> this
>>  >> is merely a transitional period for it, so I stay with my current
>>  >> platform
>>  >> and wait until the dust settles --or pay for the upgrade with support if
>>  >> my
>>  >> situation changes. While NB has many issues, it will eventually resolve
>>  >> the
>>  >> main ones or become a dust covered relic with passing memories.
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> Bill
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> > Indeed, I think the approach Emilian suggests is the way to go.
>>  >> And,
>>  >> >> > indeed, if you don't want to or have the time to move to Maven of
>>  >> >> > Gradle, then a lot of modern options start closing off to you.
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> > But, on a different level, for a lot of users of NetBeans, the
>>  >> >> > chickens have come home to roost: a free and open source project,
>>  >> such
>>  >> >> > as NetBeans, should never simply have been 'used', it should always
>>  >> >> > have been invested in. For example, simply filing a bug and hoping
>>  >> >> > someone will turn up to fix it has never been the way open source
>>  >> is
>>  >> >> > meant to work.
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> > Nothing is ever free -- either you spend time (in understanding how
>>  >> >> > NetBeans works, for example) or money (in paying JetBrains, for
>>  >> >> > example, and then you have engineers creating IntelliJ IDEA for
>>  >> you).
>>  >> >> > Not spending anything at all and hoping things will work out for
>>  >> you
>>  >> >> > has never been a sustainable approach.
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> > Gjj
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> > On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 4:24 PM Emilian Bold
>>  >> <em...@gmail.com>
>>  >> >> > wrote:
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >> >> Go and pick Azul Zulu' JDK FX package which comes bundles with
>>  >> JavaFX:
>>  >> >> >>
>>  >> >> >>
>>  >> https://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu-community/?&architecture=x86-64-b
>>  >> >> >> it&package=jdk-fx
>>  >> >> >>
>>  >> >> >> I used it for an older Platform app where I don't feel like
>>  >> >> >> configuring the FX mumbo jumbo.
>>  >> >> >>
>>  >> >> >> I doubt anybody can make a magic transition tools since there's
>>  >> too
>>  >> >> >> much people can customize...
>>  >> >> >>
>>  >> >> >> Given the resources available, things are as they are. They could
>>  >> >> >> always be better.
>>  >> >> >>
>>  >> >> >> --emi
>>  >> >> >>
>>  >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 5:16 PM Paul Szudzik
>>  >> <pszudzik@throwarock.com
>>  >> >
>>  >> >> >> wrote:
>>  >> >> >> >
>>  >> >> >> > I have been a NetBeans user since inception. I am retired
>>  >> now,
>>  >> >> >> but
>>  >> >> >> when I worked, I was one of the few people in my company that was
>>  >> an
>>  >> >> >> advocate of NetBeans, and used it instead of the company line,
>>  >> >> >> Eclipse product.
>>  >> >> >> >
>>  >> >> >> > Retired now for 10+ years, I used NetBeans to develop my
>>  >> >> >> > products,
>>  >> >> >> and really getting involved in JavaFX big time. I love the cross
>>  >> >> >> platform capability, and use it on both Ubuntu and Windows.
>>  >> >> >> Raspberry Pi, no problem. Windows, no problem. I loved it. Then
>>  >> >> >> boom, Oracle takes JavaFX out of the mix, and NetBeans and I start
>>  >> >> >> having major problems. It gets harder and harder to use NetBeans
>>  >> with
>>  >> >> >> it’s incompatibility with JavaFX without going through
>>  >> hoops every
>>  >> >> >> single time we upgrade. I have a ton of projects that are a major
>>  >> >> >> pain to go back to without having to dance on a high wire to get
>>  >> to
>>  >> >> >> work. And I am still not sure I can do this anymore.
>>  >> >> >> >
>>  >> >> >> > I have been a computer programmer, designer and architect
>>  >> for
>>  >> >> >> > well
>>  >> >> >> over 53+ years. I have see many systems come and go, many IDE
>>  >> rise
>>  >> >> >> and fall, many languages surface and crash. The move to Maven is
>>  >> >> >> beyond my scope now. I want to program, not to have to regenerate
>>  >> >> >> and rehash my build system every release. I have tried to move
>>  >> over
>>  >> >> >> to 11, and mostly failed. I have too many modules and programs in
>>  >> play to hack this out.
>>  >> >> >> >
>>  >> >> >> > It would have been great if NetBeans had a seamless
>>  >> transition
>>  >> >> >> > ,
>>  >> >> >> built in conversions for old projects to current format.
>>  >> Seriously,
>>  >> >> >> I would love to be on that train. But nope, it seems too much
>>  >> >> >> handholding and dancing. I currently have a half dozen active
>>  >> >> >> Beta’s that are stuck in a NetBeans 8.1.x / Java 8
>>  >> scenario, that
>>  >> >> >> I want to port into NetBeans
>>  >> >> >> 11.3 / Java 13+ area, but really don’t believe that it is
>>  >> 1: Easy,
>>  >> 2:
>>  >> >> >> Lasting, 3: Enduring more than another release.
>>  >> >> >> >
>>  >> >> >> > I still have reported bugs > 5 years old that are not
>>  >> resolved.
>>  >> >> >> >
>>  >> >> >> > I see streams of notes that are asking questions about
>>  >> >> >> compatibility. ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... ) I see
>>  >> how
>>  >> >> >> once the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off
>>  >> is
>>  >> >> >> almost impossible. If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this
>>  >> is a
>>  >> >> >> good trend.
>>  >> >> >> If
>>  >> >> >> you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more
>>  >> than
>>  >> >> >> just an annoyance. It almost easier to find another IDE to settle
>>  >> in
>>  >> >> >> on, as the amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably
>>  >> more,
>>  >> >> >> from old NetBeans to new NetBeans is formidable.
>>  >> >> >> >
>>  >> >> >> > Maybe a 3rd party can produce a product that 100% transfer
>>  >> old
>>  >> >> >> projects to Maven.. I’d rather develop and code than mess
>>  >> around
>>  >> >> >> with trying to make things move up the NetBeans chain anymore..
>>  >> >> >> Coding is fun, transitioning is not. I am 100% committed to
>>  >> JavaFX,
>>  >> I
>>  >> >> >> like the layouts, I like what Gluon has done, I like the look and
>>  >> >> >> feel.
>>  >> >> >> >
>>  >> >> >> > NetBeans 8 –> NetBeans 11+ –> convert ...
>>  >> >> >> >
>>  >> >> >> > I would normally apologize for my rant, but nope. I feel
>>  >> that
>>  >> I
>>  >> >> >> > am
>>  >> >> >> now progressing backwards...
>>  >> >> >> >
>>  >> >> >> >
>>  >> >> >> >
>>  >> >> >>
>>  >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>  >> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>>  >> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>>  >> >> >>
>>  >> >> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>>  >> >> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>  >> >> >>
>>  >> >> >>
>>  >> >> >
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> Bill Melendez, Founder & CEO, MBA
>>  >> >> HEMS Technology
>>  >> >> www.hemstech.com
>>  >> >> www.linkedin.com/in/billmelendez
>>  >> >> bmelendez@hemstech.com
>>  >> >> 817-932-0047
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>  >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>>  >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>>  >> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>  >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>>  >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>>  >> >>
>>  >> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>>  >> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>  >> >>
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>  > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>>  > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>>  >
>>  > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>>  > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>  >
>>  >
>> 
>> 
>>  Bill Melendez, Founder & CEO, MBA
>>  HEMS Technology
>> www.hemstech.com
>> www.linkedin.com/in/billmelendez
>> bmelendez@hemstech.com
>>  817-932-0047
>> 

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>]

Indeed.

It seems clear to me that we need something like what this is for TomEE:
tomitribe.com <https://www.tomitribe.com/>

An entity outside Apache to support the development of NetBeans, e.g., look
at this company description, replace all "TomEE" with "NetBeans" and you
have what people in this thread are looking for, I believe:

https://www.tomitribe.com/company/

Gj

On Sat, Mar 14, 2020 at 2:07 PM <bm...@hemstech.com> wrote:

> All:
>
> I think we need a platform for making the payments to the NB development
> --something like crowdsource but independent of any other platform to
> eliminate the fees and costs. I for one will be willing to make monthly
> dollar contributions. NB is too good of a platform to let it go under due
> to internal issues.
>
>
> > Geertjan and All --
> >
> > Not a problem!  To whom and where should the check be sent?
> >
> >   -- Chris
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
> > To: Chris Olsen <co...@mchsi.com>
> > Cc: Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>, John Mc
> > <mc...@gmail.com>, Netbeans Mailing List
> > <us...@netbeans.apache.org>, Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>,
> > Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net>, Thomas Wolf <tj...@gmail.com>,
> > bmelendez@hemstech.com
> > Sent: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 15:22:45 -0400 (EDT)
> > Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
> >
> > Sure! If you’re not willing/able to participate in NetCAT yourself:
> >
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/NetCAT+12.0
> >
> > ...would you be interested in sponsoring others to do so, at say $50 per
> > person per NetCAT test spec?
> >
> > Gj
> >
> > On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 20:01, Chris Olsen <co...@mchsi.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Thomas and All --
> >>
> >>    Mine is much the same story.  Would there be some way to contribute
> >> $$$
> >> (or, in my case, $$) to the team meaningfully?
> >>
> >>   -- Chris
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: Thomas Wolf <tj...@gmail.com>
> >> To: John Mc <mc...@gmail.com>
> >> Cc: Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net>, bmelendez@hemstech.com,
> Geertjan
> >> Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>,
> >> Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>, Netbeans Mailing List <
> >> users@netbeans.apache.org>
> >> Sent: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 14:10:11 -0400 (EDT)
> >> Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
> >>
> >> My $.02,
> >> I’ve been benefitting from NB since I moved over from Visual Cafe in
> >> 1999
> >> (to give you an idea of what a Java dinosaur I am).  And my only
> >> contributions in 2+ decades have been bug reports (most of which now lie
> >> forgotten somewhere in the bowels of the old Bugzilla system) and 1-2
> >> NetCAT participations.   I have always been willing to pay for this
> >> excellent tool but never had the desire (or time) to improve it myself.
> >>  In the early days, I once downloaded it with the faint hope of
> >> correcting
> >> a minor bug - but didn’t even succeed in building it.   For me at
> >> least,
> >> the time it takes to get high enough on the learning curve to contribute
> >> meaningfully is more than I have been willing to invest (maybe that’ll
> >> change after I retire in a few years).
> >>
> >> But like I said, I’ve always been more than happy to pay for the tool.
> >>  I
> >> wonder if it’s too late for NB to introduce such an
> >> alternative/additional
> >> model?   Just a thought.
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >> Tom
> >>
> >>
> >> > On Mar 13, 2020, at 9:51 AM, John Mc <mc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > 
> >> > But instead of looking at this financial payment, why not consider an
> >> time/effort payment?
> >> >
> >> > At present, I cant really talk, I've been busy, and have provided
> >> anything back to NetBeans in a while but then I don't have any issues
> >> that
> >> are negatively effecting me.  If and when I do I will hopefully try to
> >> address them, like I have tried to in the past.
> >> >
> >> > The way I see it, if we could find out what exactly is blocking people
> >> from moving to 11.3/12, and then if they can spend even a small amount
> >> of
> >> time/effort into looking at these we can get to an even better NetBeans
> >> product.
> >> >
> >> > John
> >> >
> >> >> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 13:34, Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net>
> >> wrote:
> >> >> Agreed, NetBeans is worth paying for....
> >> >>
> >> >> I am with Bill, I have not upgraded and I am at 9 similar to 8.
> >> >>
> >> >> Rob
> >> >>
> >> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> >> From: bmelendez@hemstech.com [mailto:bmelendez@hemstech.com]
> >> >> Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 9:30 AM
> >> >> To: Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
> >> >> Cc: Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>; Paul Szudzik <
> >> pszudzik@throwarock.com>; Netbeans Mailing List
> >> <users@netbeans.apache.org
> >> >
> >> >> Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
> >> >>
> >> >> All:
> >> >>
> >> >> Been reading all the emails on the NB migration. I do JAVA on NB
> >> 8.0.2
> >> platform and have not upgraded due to the issues being address. I do
> >> okay
> >> with the NB 8. If this is so critical for getting program done for
> >> clients,
> >> then one should be willing to pay for the platform. See it as a business
> >> expense and write it off at tax time. Normally, tools are included in
> >> the
> >> cost of a job -so I'm miffed as to the expectations placing the onus on
> >> NB
> >> development to resolve things at no cost. NB is a great platform and
> >> this
> >> is merely a transitional period for it, so I stay with my current
> >> platform
> >> and wait until the dust settles --or pay for the upgrade with support if
> >> my
> >> situation changes. While NB has many issues, it will eventually resolve
> >> the
> >> main ones or become a dust covered relic with passing memories.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Bill
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > Indeed, I think the approach Emilian suggests is the way to go.
> >> And,
> >> >> > indeed, if you don't want to or have the time to move to Maven of
> >> >> > Gradle, then a lot of modern options start closing off to you.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > But, on a different level, for a lot of users of NetBeans, the
> >> >> > chickens have come home to roost: a free and open source project,
> >> such
> >> >> > as NetBeans, should never simply have been 'used', it should always
> >> >> > have been invested in. For example, simply filing a bug and hoping
> >> >> > someone will turn up to fix it has never been the way open source
> >> is
> >> >> > meant to work.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Nothing is ever free -- either you spend time (in understanding how
> >> >> > NetBeans works, for example) or money (in paying JetBrains, for
> >> >> > example, and then you have engineers creating IntelliJ IDEA for
> >> you).
> >> >> > Not spending anything at all and hoping things will work out for
> >> you
> >> >> > has never been a sustainable approach.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Gjj
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 4:24 PM Emilian Bold
> >> <em...@gmail.com>
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Go and pick Azul Zulu' JDK FX package which comes bundles with
> >> JavaFX:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> https://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu-community/?&architecture=x86-64-b
> >> >> >> it&package=jdk-fx
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I used it for an older Platform app where I don't feel like
> >> >> >> configuring the FX mumbo jumbo.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I doubt anybody can make a magic transition tools since there's
> >> too
> >> >> >> much people can customize...
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Given the resources available, things are as they are. They could
> >> >> >> always be better.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> --emi
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 5:16 PM Paul Szudzik
> >> <pszudzik@throwarock.com
> >> >
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >     I have been a NetBeans user since inception.  I am retired
> >> now,
> >> >> >> but
> >> >> >> when I worked, I was one of the few people in my company that was
> >> an
> >> >> >> advocate of NetBeans, and used it instead of the company line,
> >> >> >> Eclipse product.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >     Retired now for 10+ years, I used NetBeans to develop my
> >> >> >> > products,
> >> >> >> and really getting involved in JavaFX big time. I love the cross
> >> >> >> platform capability, and use it on both Ubuntu and Windows.
> >> >> >> Raspberry Pi, no problem.  Windows, no problem.  I loved it. Then
> >> >> >> boom, Oracle takes JavaFX out of the mix, and NetBeans and I start
> >> >> >> having major problems. It gets harder and harder to use NetBeans
> >> with
> >> >> >> it’s incompatibility with JavaFX without going through
> >> hoops every
> >> >> >> single time we upgrade.  I have a ton of projects that are a major
> >> >> >> pain to go back to without having to dance on a high wire to get
> >> to
> >> >> >> work.  And I am still not sure I can do this anymore.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >     I have been a computer programmer, designer and architect
> >> for
> >> >> >> > well
> >> >> >> over 53+ years.  I have see many systems come and go, many IDE
> >> rise
> >> >> >> and fall, many languages surface and crash.  The move to Maven is
> >> >> >> beyond my scope now.  I want to program, not to have to regenerate
> >> >> >> and rehash my build system every release.  I have tried to move
> >> over
> >> >> >> to 11, and mostly failed.  I have too many modules and programs in
> >> play to hack this out.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >     It would have been great if NetBeans had a seamless
> >> transition
> >> >> >> > ,
> >> >> >> built in conversions for old projects to current format.
> >> Seriously,
> >> >> >> I would love to be on that train.  But nope, it seems too much
> >> >> >> handholding and dancing.  I currently have a half dozen active
> >> >> >> Beta’s  that are stuck in a NetBeans 8.1.x / Java 8
> >> scenario, that
> >> >> >> I want to port into NetBeans
> >> >> >> 11.3 / Java 13+ area, but really don’t believe that it is
> >> 1: Easy,
> >> 2:
> >> >> >> Lasting, 3: Enduring more than another release.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >     I still have reported bugs > 5 years old that are not
> >> resolved.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >     I see streams of notes that are asking questions about
> >> >> >> compatibility.  ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I see
> >> how
> >> >> >> once the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off
> >> is
> >> >> >> almost impossible.  If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this
> >> is a
> >> >> >> good trend.
> >> >> >> If
> >> >> >> you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more
> >> than
> >> >> >> just an annoyance.  It almost easier to find another IDE to settle
> >> in
> >> >> >> on, as the amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably
> >> more,
> >> >> >> from old NetBeans to new NetBeans is formidable.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >     Maybe a 3rd party can produce a product that 100% transfer
> >> old
> >> >> >> projects to Maven..  I’d rather develop and code than mess
> >> around
> >> >> >> with trying to make things move up the NetBeans chain anymore..
> >> >> >> Coding is fun, transitioning is not. I am 100% committed to
> >> JavaFX,
> >> I
> >> >> >> like the layouts, I like what Gluon has done, I like the look and
> >> >> >> feel.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >     NetBeans 8 –> NetBeans 11+ –> convert ...
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >     I would normally apologize for my rant, but nope. I feel
> >> that
> >> I
> >> >> >> > am
> >> >> >> now progressing backwards...
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> >> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> >> >> >>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Bill Melendez, Founder & CEO, MBA
> >> >> HEMS Technology
> >> >> www.hemstech.com
> >> >> www.linkedin.com/in/billmelendez
> >> >> bmelendez@hemstech.com
> >> >> 817-932-0047
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >> >>
> >> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> >> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >> >>
> >> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> >> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
>
>
> Bill Melendez, Founder & CEO, MBA
> HEMS Technology
> www.hemstech.com
> www.linkedin.com/in/billmelendez
> bmelendez@hemstech.com
> 817-932-0047
>
>

Re: Statement of disappointment

[bm...@hemstech.com]

All:

I think we need a platform for making the payments to the NB development
--something like crowdsource but independent of any other platform to
eliminate the fees and costs. I for one will be willing to make monthly
dollar contributions. NB is too good of a platform to let it go under due
to internal issues.


> Geertjan and All --
>
> Not a problem!  To whom and where should the check be sent?
>
>   -- Chris
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
> To: Chris Olsen <co...@mchsi.com>
> Cc: Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>, John Mc
> <mc...@gmail.com>, Netbeans Mailing List
> <us...@netbeans.apache.org>, Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>,
> Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net>, Thomas Wolf <tj...@gmail.com>,
> bmelendez@hemstech.com
> Sent: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 15:22:45 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
>
> Sure! If you’re not willing/able to participate in NetCAT yourself:
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/NetCAT+12.0
>
> ...would you be interested in sponsoring others to do so, at say $50 per
> person per NetCAT test spec?
>
> Gj
>
> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 20:01, Chris Olsen <co...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>
>> Thomas and All --
>>
>>    Mine is much the same story.  Would there be some way to contribute
>> $$$
>> (or, in my case, $$) to the team meaningfully?
>>
>>   -- Chris
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Thomas Wolf <tj...@gmail.com>
>> To: John Mc <mc...@gmail.com>
>> Cc: Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net>, bmelendez@hemstech.com, Geertjan
>> Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>,
>> Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>, Netbeans Mailing List <
>> users@netbeans.apache.org>
>> Sent: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 14:10:11 -0400 (EDT)
>> Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
>>
>> My $.02,
>> I’ve been benefitting from NB since I moved over from Visual Cafe in
>> 1999
>> (to give you an idea of what a Java dinosaur I am).  And my only
>> contributions in 2+ decades have been bug reports (most of which now lie
>> forgotten somewhere in the bowels of the old Bugzilla system) and 1-2
>> NetCAT participations.   I have always been willing to pay for this
>> excellent tool but never had the desire (or time) to improve it myself.
>>  In the early days, I once downloaded it with the faint hope of
>> correcting
>> a minor bug - but didn’t even succeed in building it.   For me at
>> least,
>> the time it takes to get high enough on the learning curve to contribute
>> meaningfully is more than I have been willing to invest (maybe that’ll
>> change after I retire in a few years).
>>
>> But like I said, I’ve always been more than happy to pay for the tool.
>>  I
>> wonder if it’s too late for NB to introduce such an
>> alternative/additional
>> model?   Just a thought.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Tom
>>
>>
>> > On Mar 13, 2020, at 9:51 AM, John Mc <mc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > 
>> > But instead of looking at this financial payment, why not consider an
>> time/effort payment?
>> >
>> > At present, I cant really talk, I've been busy, and have provided
>> anything back to NetBeans in a while but then I don't have any issues
>> that
>> are negatively effecting me.  If and when I do I will hopefully try to
>> address them, like I have tried to in the past.
>> >
>> > The way I see it, if we could find out what exactly is blocking people
>> from moving to 11.3/12, and then if they can spend even a small amount
>> of
>> time/effort into looking at these we can get to an even better NetBeans
>> product.
>> >
>> > John
>> >
>> >> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 13:34, Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net>
>> wrote:
>> >> Agreed, NetBeans is worth paying for....
>> >>
>> >> I am with Bill, I have not upgraded and I am at 9 similar to 8.
>> >>
>> >> Rob
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: bmelendez@hemstech.com [mailto:bmelendez@hemstech.com]
>> >> Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 9:30 AM
>> >> To: Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
>> >> Cc: Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>; Paul Szudzik <
>> pszudzik@throwarock.com>; Netbeans Mailing List
>> <users@netbeans.apache.org
>> >
>> >> Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
>> >>
>> >> All:
>> >>
>> >> Been reading all the emails on the NB migration. I do JAVA on NB
>> 8.0.2
>> platform and have not upgraded due to the issues being address. I do
>> okay
>> with the NB 8. If this is so critical for getting program done for
>> clients,
>> then one should be willing to pay for the platform. See it as a business
>> expense and write it off at tax time. Normally, tools are included in
>> the
>> cost of a job -so I'm miffed as to the expectations placing the onus on
>> NB
>> development to resolve things at no cost. NB is a great platform and
>> this
>> is merely a transitional period for it, so I stay with my current
>> platform
>> and wait until the dust settles --or pay for the upgrade with support if
>> my
>> situation changes. While NB has many issues, it will eventually resolve
>> the
>> main ones or become a dust covered relic with passing memories.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Bill
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Indeed, I think the approach Emilian suggests is the way to go.
>> And,
>> >> > indeed, if you don't want to or have the time to move to Maven of
>> >> > Gradle, then a lot of modern options start closing off to you.
>> >> >
>> >> > But, on a different level, for a lot of users of NetBeans, the
>> >> > chickens have come home to roost: a free and open source project,
>> such
>> >> > as NetBeans, should never simply have been 'used', it should always
>> >> > have been invested in. For example, simply filing a bug and hoping
>> >> > someone will turn up to fix it has never been the way open source
>> is
>> >> > meant to work.
>> >> >
>> >> > Nothing is ever free -- either you spend time (in understanding how
>> >> > NetBeans works, for example) or money (in paying JetBrains, for
>> >> > example, and then you have engineers creating IntelliJ IDEA for
>> you).
>> >> > Not spending anything at all and hoping things will work out for
>> you
>> >> > has never been a sustainable approach.
>> >> >
>> >> > Gjj
>> >> >
>> >> > On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 4:24 PM Emilian Bold
>> <em...@gmail.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Go and pick Azul Zulu' JDK FX package which comes bundles with
>> JavaFX:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> https://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu-community/?&architecture=x86-64-b
>> >> >> it&package=jdk-fx
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I used it for an older Platform app where I don't feel like
>> >> >> configuring the FX mumbo jumbo.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I doubt anybody can make a magic transition tools since there's
>> too
>> >> >> much people can customize...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Given the resources available, things are as they are. They could
>> >> >> always be better.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --emi
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 5:16 PM Paul Szudzik
>> <pszudzik@throwarock.com
>> >
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >     I have been a NetBeans user since inception.  I am retired
>> now,
>> >> >> but
>> >> >> when I worked, I was one of the few people in my company that was
>> an
>> >> >> advocate of NetBeans, and used it instead of the company line,
>> >> >> Eclipse product.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >     Retired now for 10+ years, I used NetBeans to develop my
>> >> >> > products,
>> >> >> and really getting involved in JavaFX big time. I love the cross
>> >> >> platform capability, and use it on both Ubuntu and Windows.
>> >> >> Raspberry Pi, no problem.  Windows, no problem.  I loved it. Then
>> >> >> boom, Oracle takes JavaFX out of the mix, and NetBeans and I start
>> >> >> having major problems. It gets harder and harder to use NetBeans
>> with
>> >> >> it’s incompatibility with JavaFX without going through
>> hoops every
>> >> >> single time we upgrade.  I have a ton of projects that are a major
>> >> >> pain to go back to without having to dance on a high wire to get
>> to
>> >> >> work.  And I am still not sure I can do this anymore.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >     I have been a computer programmer, designer and architect
>> for
>> >> >> > well
>> >> >> over 53+ years.  I have see many systems come and go, many IDE
>> rise
>> >> >> and fall, many languages surface and crash.  The move to Maven is
>> >> >> beyond my scope now.  I want to program, not to have to regenerate
>> >> >> and rehash my build system every release.  I have tried to move
>> over
>> >> >> to 11, and mostly failed.  I have too many modules and programs in
>> play to hack this out.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >     It would have been great if NetBeans had a seamless
>> transition
>> >> >> > ,
>> >> >> built in conversions for old projects to current format.
>> Seriously,
>> >> >> I would love to be on that train.  But nope, it seems too much
>> >> >> handholding and dancing.  I currently have a half dozen active
>> >> >> Beta’s  that are stuck in a NetBeans 8.1.x / Java 8
>> scenario, that
>> >> >> I want to port into NetBeans
>> >> >> 11.3 / Java 13+ area, but really don’t believe that it is
>> 1: Easy,
>> 2:
>> >> >> Lasting, 3: Enduring more than another release.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >     I still have reported bugs > 5 years old that are not
>> resolved.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >     I see streams of notes that are asking questions about
>> >> >> compatibility.  ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I see
>> how
>> >> >> once the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off
>> is
>> >> >> almost impossible.  If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this
>> is a
>> >> >> good trend.
>> >> >> If
>> >> >> you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more
>> than
>> >> >> just an annoyance.  It almost easier to find another IDE to settle
>> in
>> >> >> on, as the amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably
>> more,
>> >> >> from old NetBeans to new NetBeans is formidable.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >     Maybe a 3rd party can produce a product that 100% transfer
>> old
>> >> >> projects to Maven..  I’d rather develop and code than mess
>> around
>> >> >> with trying to make things move up the NetBeans chain anymore..
>> >> >> Coding is fun, transitioning is not. I am 100% committed to
>> JavaFX,
>> I
>> >> >> like the layouts, I like what Gluon has done, I like the look and
>> >> >> feel.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >     NetBeans 8 –> NetBeans 11+ –> convert ...
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >     I would normally apologize for my rant, but nope. I feel
>> that
>> I
>> >> >> > am
>> >> >> now progressing backwards...
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>> >> >>
>> >> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> >> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Bill Melendez, Founder & CEO, MBA
>> >> HEMS Technology
>> >> www.hemstech.com
>> >> www.linkedin.com/in/billmelendez
>> >> bmelendez@hemstech.com
>> >> 817-932-0047
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>> >>
>> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>> >>
>> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>> >>
>>
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>


Bill Melendez, Founder & CEO, MBA
HEMS Technology
www.hemstech.com
www.linkedin.com/in/billmelendez
bmelendez@hemstech.com
817-932-0047


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org

For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Chris Olsen <co...@mchsi.com>]

Geertjan and All --

Not a problem!  To whom and where should the check be sent?

  -- Chris

----- Original Message -----
From: Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
To: Chris Olsen <co...@mchsi.com>
Cc: Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>, John Mc <mc...@gmail.com>, Netbeans Mailing List <us...@netbeans.apache.org>, Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>, Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net>, Thomas Wolf <tj...@gmail.com>, bmelendez@hemstech.com
Sent: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 15:22:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment

Sure! If you’re not willing/able to participate in NetCAT yourself:

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/NetCAT+12.0

...would you be interested in sponsoring others to do so, at say $50 per
person per NetCAT test spec?

Gj

On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 20:01, Chris Olsen <co...@mchsi.com> wrote:

> Thomas and All --
>
>    Mine is much the same story.  Would there be some way to contribute $$$
> (or, in my case, $$) to the team meaningfully?
>
>   -- Chris
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Thomas Wolf <tj...@gmail.com>
> To: John Mc <mc...@gmail.com>
> Cc: Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net>, bmelendez@hemstech.com, Geertjan
> Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>,
> Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>, Netbeans Mailing List <
> users@netbeans.apache.org>
> Sent: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 14:10:11 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
>
> My $.02,
> I’ve been benefitting from NB since I moved over from Visual Cafe in 1999
> (to give you an idea of what a Java dinosaur I am).  And my only
> contributions in 2+ decades have been bug reports (most of which now lie
> forgotten somewhere in the bowels of the old Bugzilla system) and 1-2
> NetCAT participations.   I have always been willing to pay for this
> excellent tool but never had the desire (or time) to improve it myself.
>  In the early days, I once downloaded it with the faint hope of correcting
> a minor bug - but didn’t even succeed in building it.   For me at least,
> the time it takes to get high enough on the learning curve to contribute
> meaningfully is more than I have been willing to invest (maybe that’ll
> change after I retire in a few years).
>
> But like I said, I’ve always been more than happy to pay for the tool.  I
> wonder if it’s too late for NB to introduce such an alternative/additional
> model?   Just a thought.
>
> Best regards,
> Tom
>
>
> > On Mar 13, 2020, at 9:51 AM, John Mc <mc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > But instead of looking at this financial payment, why not consider an
> time/effort payment?
> >
> > At present, I cant really talk, I've been busy, and have provided
> anything back to NetBeans in a while but then I don't have any issues that
> are negatively effecting me.  If and when I do I will hopefully try to
> address them, like I have tried to in the past.
> >
> > The way I see it, if we could find out what exactly is blocking people
> from moving to 11.3/12, and then if they can spend even a small amount of
> time/effort into looking at these we can get to an even better NetBeans
> product.
> >
> > John
> >
> >> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 13:34, Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net> wrote:
> >> Agreed, NetBeans is worth paying for....
> >>
> >> I am with Bill, I have not upgraded and I am at 9 similar to 8.
> >>
> >> Rob
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: bmelendez@hemstech.com [mailto:bmelendez@hemstech.com]
> >> Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 9:30 AM
> >> To: Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
> >> Cc: Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>; Paul Szudzik <
> pszudzik@throwarock.com>; Netbeans Mailing List <users@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> >> Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
> >>
> >> All:
> >>
> >> Been reading all the emails on the NB migration. I do JAVA on NB 8.0.2
> platform and have not upgraded due to the issues being address. I do okay
> with the NB 8. If this is so critical for getting program done for clients,
> then one should be willing to pay for the platform. See it as a business
> expense and write it off at tax time. Normally, tools are included in the
> cost of a job -so I'm miffed as to the expectations placing the onus on NB
> development to resolve things at no cost. NB is a great platform and this
> is merely a transitional period for it, so I stay with my current platform
> and wait until the dust settles --or pay for the upgrade with support if my
> situation changes. While NB has many issues, it will eventually resolve the
> main ones or become a dust covered relic with passing memories.
> >>
> >>
> >> Bill
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > Indeed, I think the approach Emilian suggests is the way to go. And,
> >> > indeed, if you don't want to or have the time to move to Maven of
> >> > Gradle, then a lot of modern options start closing off to you.
> >> >
> >> > But, on a different level, for a lot of users of NetBeans, the
> >> > chickens have come home to roost: a free and open source project,
> such
> >> > as NetBeans, should never simply have been 'used', it should always
> >> > have been invested in. For example, simply filing a bug and hoping
> >> > someone will turn up to fix it has never been the way open source is
> >> > meant to work.
> >> >
> >> > Nothing is ever free -- either you spend time (in understanding how
> >> > NetBeans works, for example) or money (in paying JetBrains, for
> >> > example, and then you have engineers creating IntelliJ IDEA for you).
> >> > Not spending anything at all and hoping things will work out for you
> >> > has never been a sustainable approach.
> >> >
> >> > Gjj
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 4:24 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Go and pick Azul Zulu' JDK FX package which comes bundles with
> JavaFX:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> https://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu-community/?&architecture=x86-64-b
> >> >> it&package=jdk-fx
> >> >>
> >> >> I used it for an older Platform app where I don't feel like
> >> >> configuring the FX mumbo jumbo.
> >> >>
> >> >> I doubt anybody can make a magic transition tools since there's too
> >> >> much people can customize...
> >> >>
> >> >> Given the resources available, things are as they are. They could
> >> >> always be better.
> >> >>
> >> >> --emi
> >> >>
> >> >> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 5:16 PM Paul Szudzik <pszudzik@throwarock.com
> >
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     I have been a NetBeans user since inception.  I am retired now,
> >> >> but
> >> >> when I worked, I was one of the few people in my company that was an
> >> >> advocate of NetBeans, and used it instead of the company line,
> >> >> Eclipse product.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     Retired now for 10+ years, I used NetBeans to develop my
> >> >> > products,
> >> >> and really getting involved in JavaFX big time. I love the cross
> >> >> platform capability, and use it on both Ubuntu and Windows.
> >> >> Raspberry Pi, no problem.  Windows, no problem.  I loved it. Then
> >> >> boom, Oracle takes JavaFX out of the mix, and NetBeans and I start
> >> >> having major problems. It gets harder and harder to use NetBeans
> with
> >> >> it’s incompatibility with JavaFX without going through hoops every
> >> >> single time we upgrade.  I have a ton of projects that are a major
> >> >> pain to go back to without having to dance on a high wire to get to
> >> >> work.  And I am still not sure I can do this anymore.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     I have been a computer programmer, designer and architect for
> >> >> > well
> >> >> over 53+ years.  I have see many systems come and go, many IDE rise
> >> >> and fall, many languages surface and crash.  The move to Maven is
> >> >> beyond my scope now.  I want to program, not to have to regenerate
> >> >> and rehash my build system every release.  I have tried to move over
> >> >> to 11, and mostly failed.  I have too many modules and programs in
> play to hack this out.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     It would have been great if NetBeans had a seamless transition
> >> >> > ,
> >> >> built in conversions for old projects to current format.  Seriously,
> >> >> I would love to be on that train.  But nope, it seems too much
> >> >> handholding and dancing.  I currently have a half dozen active
> >> >> Beta’s  that are stuck in a NetBeans 8.1.x / Java 8 scenario, that
> >> >> I want to port into NetBeans
> >> >> 11.3 / Java 13+ area, but really don’t believe that it is 1: Easy,
> 2:
> >> >> Lasting, 3: Enduring more than another release.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     I still have reported bugs > 5 years old that are not resolved.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     I see streams of notes that are asking questions about
> >> >> compatibility.  ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I see how
> >> >> once the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off is
> >> >> almost impossible.  If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this is a
> >> >> good trend.
> >> >> If
> >> >> you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more
> than
> >> >> just an annoyance.  It almost easier to find another IDE to settle
> in
> >> >> on, as the amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably more,
> >> >> from old NetBeans to new NetBeans is formidable.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     Maybe a 3rd party can produce a product that 100% transfer old
> >> >> projects to Maven..  I’d rather develop and code than mess around
> >> >> with trying to make things move up the NetBeans chain anymore..
> >> >> Coding is fun, transitioning is not. I am 100% committed to JavaFX,
> I
> >> >> like the layouts, I like what Gluon has done, I like the look and
> >> >> feel.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     NetBeans 8 –> NetBeans 11+ –> convert ...
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     I would normally apologize for my rant, but nope. I feel that
> I
> >> >> > am
> >> >> now progressing backwards...
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >> >>
> >> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> >> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Bill Melendez, Founder & CEO, MBA
> >> HEMS Technology
> >> www.hemstech.com
> >> www.linkedin.com/in/billmelendez
> >> bmelendez@hemstech.com
> >> 817-932-0047
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >>
> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >>
> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >>
>
>


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org

For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>]

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/NetCAT+12.0+Test+Spec+Reviews

That’s all, not much.

Gj

On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 22:03, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > So let’s have all these laudables contribute to CoolBeans (put that page
> back up Emilian and link to it in this thread) and then let’s have
> CoolBeans use that pile if cash to sponsor NetCAT 12.0 participation!
>
> First, I assume the bellow was written in jest:
>
> >  $50 per person per NetCAT test spec
>
> I see there are about 200 test specs according to
> https://netbeans-vm.apache.org/synergy/client/app/#/specifications so
> is anybody really donating such substantial sums of money?
>
> Note that for CoolBeans (now OpenBeans, heh), I would have charged
> money via my company. Then paid a salary to me or cover other project
> expenses. I don't have a foundation that could give cash grants to
> external individuals. Even so, I suspect just drafting the legal
> paperwork for such a situation and clearing things up with the
> accountant would cost more than the actual donations.
>
> --emi
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 10:34 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > So let’s have all these laudables contribute to CoolBeans (put that page
> back up Emilian and link to it in this thread) and then let’s have
> CoolBeans use that pile if cash to sponsor NetCAT 12.0 participation!
> >
> > Gj
> >
> > On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 21:28, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> You guys are laudable!
> >>
> >> Back in late 2018 when I launched CoolBeans I also put up a store page
> >> as I imagined it was possible to get paid working on NetBeans codebase
> >> itself. (BTW, no third party can sell "NetBeans" since it's an Apache
> >> trademark!)
> >>
> >> Incorporated entities did use CoolBeans but not once bought a license!
> >> I did get a formal request via SoftChoice (aka procurement) which
> >> involved a lot of back and forth and changes before they could buy
> >> exactly 0 licenses.
> >>
> >> I also tried paying for features myself via bounties
> >> https://www.openbeans.org/bounties/ but nobody claimed one.
> >>
> >> Really curious what the conclusion of this talk is and what solution is
> found.
> >>
> >> My opinion is that there is no money in NetBeans (excluding some
> >> legacy Platform apps still going) and even when people want to pay
> >> other requirements are not met and the deal fails.
> >>
> >> It would be cool to have a Tomitribe for NetBeans, but... there is no
> >> market for IDE subscriptions.
> >>
> >> --emi
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 9:53 PM John G. Weed <no...@fastmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I'd be more than happy to contribute some cash to the appropriately
> formed company, either directly or in some form of licensing agreent. I'd
> also be willing to offer some time, though my expertise is limited to c/c++.
> >> >
> >> > Sincerely,
> >> >
> >> > John .G Weed
> >> > Cicero Systems, LLC
> >> > "Reason. Resolve. Respond"
> >> > (571) 277-9998
> >> >
> >> > "Steal a man's reputation for probity, and the more shrewd and clever
> he is, the more hated and mistrusted he'll become." Marcus Tullius Cicero
> (106BC-43BC)
> >> >
> >> > Confidentiality Notice:  The information contained in this electronic
> transmission is privileged and confidential and is intended only for the
> recipient(s) named above.  If the reader of this message is not the
> recipient(s) named above, or an authorized agent of such recipient(s)
> responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient(s), you are hereby
> notified that you have received this electronic transmission in error.  Any
> review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this electronic
> transmission including any attachments is strictly prohibited.  If you have
> received this electronic transmission in error, please notify the sender
> immediately.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Mar 13, 2020, at 15:33, Thomas Wolf wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I'd be happy to contribute some personal money.  To get my employer
> to pay, it would have to take the form of something like an IDE license or
> support license.  Many engineers in my company use IntelliJ and the company
> pays for those licenses - I don't see why they wouldn't pay for a Netbeans
> "license" for me as long as they have an official place from which to
> 'purchase' it.
> >> >
> >> > Best regards,
> >> > Tom
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 3:22 PM Geertjan Wielenga <
> geertjan@apache.org> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Sure! If you’re not willing/able to participate in NetCAT yourself:
> >> >
> >> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/NetCAT+12.0
> >> >
> >> > ...would you be interested in sponsoring others to do so, at say $50
> per person per NetCAT test spec?
> >> >
> >> > Gj
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 20:01, Chris Olsen <co...@mchsi.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Thomas and All --
> >> >
> >> >    Mine is much the same story.  Would there be some way to
> contribute $$$ (or, in my case, $$) to the team meaningfully?
> >> >
> >> >   -- Chris
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: Thomas Wolf <tj...@gmail.com>
> >> > To: John Mc <mc...@gmail.com>
> >> > Cc: Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net>, bmelendez@hemstech.com,
> Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>, Emilian Bold <
> emilian.bold@gmail.com>, Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>, Netbeans
> Mailing List <us...@netbeans.apache.org>
> >> > Sent: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 14:10:11 -0400 (EDT)
> >> > Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
> >> >
> >> > My $.02,
> >> > I’ve been benefitting from NB since I moved over from Visual Cafe in
> 1999 (to give you an idea of what a Java dinosaur I am).  And my only
> contributions in 2+ decades have been bug reports (most of which now lie
> forgotten somewhere in the bowels of the old Bugzilla system) and 1-2
> NetCAT participations.   I have always been willing to pay for this
> excellent tool but never had the desire (or time) to improve it myself.
>  In the early days, I once downloaded it with the faint hope of correcting
> a minor bug - but didn’t even succeed in building it.   For me at least,
> the time it takes to get high enough on the learning curve to contribute
> meaningfully is more than I have been willing to invest (maybe that’ll
> change after I retire in a few years).
> >> >
> >> > But like I said, I’ve always been more than happy to pay for the
> tool.  I wonder if it’s too late for NB to introduce such an
> alternative/additional model?   Just a thought.
> >> >
> >> > Best regards,
> >> > Tom
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > On Mar 13, 2020, at 9:51 AM, John Mc <mc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > 
> >> > > But instead of looking at this financial payment, why not consider
> an time/effort payment?
> >> > >
> >> > > At present, I cant really talk, I've been busy, and have provided
> anything back to NetBeans in a while but then I don't have any issues that
> are negatively effecting me.  If and when I do I will hopefully try to
> address them, like I have tried to in the past.
> >> > >
> >> > > The way I see it, if we could find out what exactly is blocking
> people from moving to 11.3/12, and then if they can spend even a small
> amount of time/effort into looking at these we can get to an even better
> NetBeans product.
> >> > >
> >> > > John
> >> > >
> >> > >> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 13:34, Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net>
> wrote:
> >> > >> Agreed, NetBeans is worth paying for....
> >> > >>
> >> > >> I am with Bill, I have not upgraded and I am at 9 similar to 8.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Rob
> >> > >>
> >> > >> -----Original Message-----
> >> > >> From: bmelendez@hemstech.com [mailto:bmelendez@hemstech.com]
> >> > >> Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 9:30 AM
> >> > >> To: Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
> >> > >> Cc: Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>; Paul Szudzik <
> pszudzik@throwarock.com>; Netbeans Mailing List <users@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> >> > >> Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
> >> > >>
> >> > >> All:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Been reading all the emails on the NB migration. I do JAVA on NB
> 8.0.2 platform and have not upgraded due to the issues being address. I do
> okay with the NB 8. If this is so critical for getting program done for
> clients, then one should be willing to pay for the platform. See it as a
> business expense and write it off at tax time. Normally, tools are included
> in the cost of a job -so I'm miffed as to the expectations placing the onus
> on NB development to resolve things at no cost. NB is a great platform and
> this is merely a transitional period for it, so I stay with my current
> platform and wait until the dust settles --or pay for the upgrade with
> support if my situation changes. While NB has many issues, it will
> eventually resolve the main ones or become a dust covered relic with
> passing memories.
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Bill
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> > Indeed, I think the approach Emilian suggests is the way to go.
> And,
> >> > >> > indeed, if you don't want to or have the time to move to Maven of
> >> > >> > Gradle, then a lot of modern options start closing off to you.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > But, on a different level, for a lot of users of NetBeans, the
> >> > >> > chickens have come home to roost: a free and open source
> project, such
> >> > >> > as NetBeans, should never simply have been 'used', it should
> always
> >> > >> > have been invested in. For example, simply filing a bug and
> hoping
> >> > >> > someone will turn up to fix it has never been the way open
> source is
> >> > >> > meant to work.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Nothing is ever free -- either you spend time (in understanding
> how
> >> > >> > NetBeans works, for example) or money (in paying JetBrains, for
> >> > >> > example, and then you have engineers creating IntelliJ IDEA for
> you).
> >> > >> > Not spending anything at all and hoping things will work out for
> you
> >> > >> > has never been a sustainable approach.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Gjj
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 4:24 PM Emilian Bold <
> emilian.bold@gmail.com>
> >> > >> > wrote:
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >> Go and pick Azul Zulu' JDK FX package which comes bundles with
> JavaFX:
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >>
> https://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu-community/?&architecture=x86-64-b
> >> > >> >> it&package=jdk-fx
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> I used it for an older Platform app where I don't feel like
> >> > >> >> configuring the FX mumbo jumbo.
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> I doubt anybody can make a magic transition tools since there's
> too
> >> > >> >> much people can customize...
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> Given the resources available, things are as they are. They
> could
> >> > >> >> always be better.
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> --emi
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 5:16 PM Paul Szudzik <
> pszudzik@throwarock.com>
> >> > >> >> wrote:
> >> > >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >     I have been a NetBeans user since inception.  I am
> retired now,
> >> > >> >> but
> >> > >> >> when I worked, I was one of the few people in my company that
> was an
> >> > >> >> advocate of NetBeans, and used it instead of the company line,
> >> > >> >> Eclipse product.
> >> > >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >     Retired now for 10+ years, I used NetBeans to develop my
> >> > >> >> > products,
> >> > >> >> and really getting involved in JavaFX big time. I love the cross
> >> > >> >> platform capability, and use it on both Ubuntu and Windows.
> >> > >> >> Raspberry Pi, no problem.  Windows, no problem.  I loved it.
> Then
> >> > >> >> boom, Oracle takes JavaFX out of the mix, and NetBeans and I
> start
> >> > >> >> having major problems. It gets harder and harder to use
> NetBeans with
> >> > >> >> it’s incompatibility with JavaFX without going through hoops
> every
> >> > >> >> single time we upgrade.  I have a ton of projects that are a
> major
> >> > >> >> pain to go back to without having to dance on a high wire to
> get to
> >> > >> >> work.  And I am still not sure I can do this anymore.
> >> > >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >     I have been a computer programmer, designer and architect
> for
> >> > >> >> > well
> >> > >> >> over 53+ years.  I have see many systems come and go, many IDE
> rise
> >> > >> >> and fall, many languages surface and crash.  The move to Maven
> is
> >> > >> >> beyond my scope now.  I want to program, not to have to
> regenerate
> >> > >> >> and rehash my build system every release.  I have tried to move
> over
> >> > >> >> to 11, and mostly failed.  I have too many modules and programs
> in play to hack this out.
> >> > >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >     It would have been great if NetBeans had a seamless
> transition
> >> > >> >> > ,
> >> > >> >> built in conversions for old projects to current format.
> Seriously,
> >> > >> >> I would love to be on that train.  But nope, it seems too much
> >> > >> >> handholding and dancing.  I currently have a half dozen active
> >> > >> >> Beta’s  that are stuck in a NetBeans 8.1.x / Java 8 scenario,
> that
> >> > >> >> I want to port into NetBeans
> >> > >> >> 11.3 / Java 13+ area, but really don’t believe that it is 1:
> Easy, 2:
> >> > >> >> Lasting, 3: Enduring more than another release.
> >> > >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >     I still have reported bugs > 5 years old that are not
> resolved.
> >> > >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >     I see streams of notes that are asking questions about
> >> > >> >> compatibility.  ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I
> see how
> >> > >> >> once the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail
> off is
> >> > >> >> almost impossible.  If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this
> is a
> >> > >> >> good trend.
> >> > >> >> If
> >> > >> >> you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes
> more than
> >> > >> >> just an annoyance.  It almost easier to find another IDE to
> settle in
> >> > >> >> on, as the amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably
> more,
> >> > >> >> from old NetBeans to new NetBeans is formidable.
> >> > >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >     Maybe a 3rd party can produce a product that 100%
> transfer old
> >> > >> >> projects to Maven..  I’d rather develop and code than mess
> around
> >> > >> >> with trying to make things move up the NetBeans chain anymore..
> >> > >> >> Coding is fun, transitioning is not. I am 100% committed to
> JavaFX, I
> >> > >> >> like the layouts, I like what Gluon has done, I like the look
> and
> >> > >> >> feel.
> >> > >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >     NetBeans 8 –> NetBeans 11+ –> convert ...
> >> > >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >     I would normally apologize for my rant, but nope. I feel
> that I
> >> > >> >> > am
> >> > >> >> now progressing backwards...
> >> > >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >
> >> > >> >> >
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> >> > >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> >> > >> >>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Bill Melendez, Founder & CEO, MBA
> >> > >> HEMS Technology
> >> > >> www.hemstech.com
> >> > >> www.linkedin.com/in/billmelendez
> >> > >> bmelendez@hemstech.com
> >> > >> 817-932-0047
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> >> > >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >> > >>
> >> > >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> >> > >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> >> > >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >> > >>
> >> > >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> >> > >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >> > >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > tjwolf@gmail.com
> >> > http://landofwolf.blogspot.com/
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >>
> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

> So let’s have all these laudables contribute to CoolBeans (put that page back up Emilian and link to it in this thread) and then let’s have CoolBeans use that pile if cash to sponsor NetCAT 12.0 participation!

First, I assume the bellow was written in jest:

>  $50 per person per NetCAT test spec

I see there are about 200 test specs according to
https://netbeans-vm.apache.org/synergy/client/app/#/specifications so
is anybody really donating such substantial sums of money?

Note that for CoolBeans (now OpenBeans, heh), I would have charged
money via my company. Then paid a salary to me or cover other project
expenses. I don't have a foundation that could give cash grants to
external individuals. Even so, I suspect just drafting the legal
paperwork for such a situation and clearing things up with the
accountant would cost more than the actual donations.

--emi


On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 10:34 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> So let’s have all these laudables contribute to CoolBeans (put that page back up Emilian and link to it in this thread) and then let’s have CoolBeans use that pile if cash to sponsor NetCAT 12.0 participation!
>
> Gj
>
> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 21:28, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> You guys are laudable!
>>
>> Back in late 2018 when I launched CoolBeans I also put up a store page
>> as I imagined it was possible to get paid working on NetBeans codebase
>> itself. (BTW, no third party can sell "NetBeans" since it's an Apache
>> trademark!)
>>
>> Incorporated entities did use CoolBeans but not once bought a license!
>> I did get a formal request via SoftChoice (aka procurement) which
>> involved a lot of back and forth and changes before they could buy
>> exactly 0 licenses.
>>
>> I also tried paying for features myself via bounties
>> https://www.openbeans.org/bounties/ but nobody claimed one.
>>
>> Really curious what the conclusion of this talk is and what solution is found.
>>
>> My opinion is that there is no money in NetBeans (excluding some
>> legacy Platform apps still going) and even when people want to pay
>> other requirements are not met and the deal fails.
>>
>> It would be cool to have a Tomitribe for NetBeans, but... there is no
>> market for IDE subscriptions.
>>
>> --emi
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 9:53 PM John G. Weed <no...@fastmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > I'd be more than happy to contribute some cash to the appropriately formed company, either directly or in some form of licensing agreent. I'd also be willing to offer some time, though my expertise is limited to c/c++.
>> >
>> > Sincerely,
>> >
>> > John .G Weed
>> > Cicero Systems, LLC
>> > "Reason. Resolve. Respond"
>> > (571) 277-9998
>> >
>> > "Steal a man's reputation for probity, and the more shrewd and clever he is, the more hated and mistrusted he'll become." Marcus Tullius Cicero (106BC-43BC)
>> >
>> > Confidentiality Notice:  The information contained in this electronic transmission is privileged and confidential and is intended only for the recipient(s) named above.  If the reader of this message is not the recipient(s) named above, or an authorized agent of such recipient(s) responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that you have received this electronic transmission in error.  Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this electronic transmission including any attachments is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Mar 13, 2020, at 15:33, Thomas Wolf wrote:
>> >
>> > I'd be happy to contribute some personal money.  To get my employer to pay, it would have to take the form of something like an IDE license or support license.  Many engineers in my company use IntelliJ and the company pays for those licenses - I don't see why they wouldn't pay for a Netbeans "license" for me as long as they have an official place from which to 'purchase' it.
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> > Tom
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 3:22 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Sure! If you’re not willing/able to participate in NetCAT yourself:
>> >
>> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/NetCAT+12.0
>> >
>> > ...would you be interested in sponsoring others to do so, at say $50 per person per NetCAT test spec?
>> >
>> > Gj
>> >
>> > On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 20:01, Chris Olsen <co...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Thomas and All --
>> >
>> >    Mine is much the same story.  Would there be some way to contribute $$$ (or, in my case, $$) to the team meaningfully?
>> >
>> >   -- Chris
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: Thomas Wolf <tj...@gmail.com>
>> > To: John Mc <mc...@gmail.com>
>> > Cc: Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net>, bmelendez@hemstech.com, Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>, Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>, Netbeans Mailing List <us...@netbeans.apache.org>
>> > Sent: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 14:10:11 -0400 (EDT)
>> > Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
>> >
>> > My $.02,
>> > I’ve been benefitting from NB since I moved over from Visual Cafe in 1999 (to give you an idea of what a Java dinosaur I am).  And my only contributions in 2+ decades have been bug reports (most of which now lie forgotten somewhere in the bowels of the old Bugzilla system) and 1-2 NetCAT participations.   I have always been willing to pay for this excellent tool but never had the desire (or time) to improve it myself.   In the early days, I once downloaded it with the faint hope of correcting a minor bug - but didn’t even succeed in building it.   For me at least, the time it takes to get high enough on the learning curve to contribute meaningfully is more than I have been willing to invest (maybe that’ll change after I retire in a few years).
>> >
>> > But like I said, I’ve always been more than happy to pay for the tool.  I wonder if it’s too late for NB to introduce such an alternative/additional model?   Just a thought.
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> > Tom
>> >
>> >
>> > > On Mar 13, 2020, at 9:51 AM, John Mc <mc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > 
>> > > But instead of looking at this financial payment, why not consider an time/effort payment?
>> > >
>> > > At present, I cant really talk, I've been busy, and have provided anything back to NetBeans in a while but then I don't have any issues that are negatively effecting me.  If and when I do I will hopefully try to address them, like I have tried to in the past.
>> > >
>> > > The way I see it, if we could find out what exactly is blocking people from moving to 11.3/12, and then if they can spend even a small amount of time/effort into looking at these we can get to an even better NetBeans product.
>> > >
>> > > John
>> > >
>> > >> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 13:34, Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net> wrote:
>> > >> Agreed, NetBeans is worth paying for....
>> > >>
>> > >> I am with Bill, I have not upgraded and I am at 9 similar to 8.
>> > >>
>> > >> Rob
>> > >>
>> > >> -----Original Message-----
>> > >> From: bmelendez@hemstech.com [mailto:bmelendez@hemstech.com]
>> > >> Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 9:30 AM
>> > >> To: Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
>> > >> Cc: Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>; Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>; Netbeans Mailing List <us...@netbeans.apache.org>
>> > >> Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
>> > >>
>> > >> All:
>> > >>
>> > >> Been reading all the emails on the NB migration. I do JAVA on NB 8.0.2 platform and have not upgraded due to the issues being address. I do okay with the NB 8. If this is so critical for getting program done for clients, then one should be willing to pay for the platform. See it as a business expense and write it off at tax time. Normally, tools are included in the cost of a job -so I'm miffed as to the expectations placing the onus on NB development to resolve things at no cost. NB is a great platform and this is merely a transitional period for it, so I stay with my current platform and wait until the dust settles --or pay for the upgrade with support if my situation changes. While NB has many issues, it will eventually resolve the main ones or become a dust covered relic with passing memories.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> Bill
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> > Indeed, I think the approach Emilian suggests is the way to go. And,
>> > >> > indeed, if you don't want to or have the time to move to Maven of
>> > >> > Gradle, then a lot of modern options start closing off to you.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > But, on a different level, for a lot of users of NetBeans, the
>> > >> > chickens have come home to roost: a free and open source project, such
>> > >> > as NetBeans, should never simply have been 'used', it should always
>> > >> > have been invested in. For example, simply filing a bug and hoping
>> > >> > someone will turn up to fix it has never been the way open source is
>> > >> > meant to work.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Nothing is ever free -- either you spend time (in understanding how
>> > >> > NetBeans works, for example) or money (in paying JetBrains, for
>> > >> > example, and then you have engineers creating IntelliJ IDEA for you).
>> > >> > Not spending anything at all and hoping things will work out for you
>> > >> > has never been a sustainable approach.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Gjj
>> > >> >
>> > >> > On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 4:24 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
>> > >> > wrote:
>> > >> >
>> > >> >> Go and pick Azul Zulu' JDK FX package which comes bundles with JavaFX:
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> https://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu-community/?&architecture=x86-64-b
>> > >> >> it&package=jdk-fx
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> I used it for an older Platform app where I don't feel like
>> > >> >> configuring the FX mumbo jumbo.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> I doubt anybody can make a magic transition tools since there's too
>> > >> >> much people can customize...
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> Given the resources available, things are as they are. They could
>> > >> >> always be better.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> --emi
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 5:16 PM Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>
>> > >> >> wrote:
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >     I have been a NetBeans user since inception.  I am retired now,
>> > >> >> but
>> > >> >> when I worked, I was one of the few people in my company that was an
>> > >> >> advocate of NetBeans, and used it instead of the company line,
>> > >> >> Eclipse product.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >     Retired now for 10+ years, I used NetBeans to develop my
>> > >> >> > products,
>> > >> >> and really getting involved in JavaFX big time. I love the cross
>> > >> >> platform capability, and use it on both Ubuntu and Windows.
>> > >> >> Raspberry Pi, no problem.  Windows, no problem.  I loved it. Then
>> > >> >> boom, Oracle takes JavaFX out of the mix, and NetBeans and I start
>> > >> >> having major problems. It gets harder and harder to use NetBeans with
>> > >> >> it’s incompatibility with JavaFX without going through hoops every
>> > >> >> single time we upgrade.  I have a ton of projects that are a major
>> > >> >> pain to go back to without having to dance on a high wire to get to
>> > >> >> work.  And I am still not sure I can do this anymore.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >     I have been a computer programmer, designer and architect for
>> > >> >> > well
>> > >> >> over 53+ years.  I have see many systems come and go, many IDE rise
>> > >> >> and fall, many languages surface and crash.  The move to Maven is
>> > >> >> beyond my scope now.  I want to program, not to have to regenerate
>> > >> >> and rehash my build system every release.  I have tried to move over
>> > >> >> to 11, and mostly failed.  I have too many modules and programs in play to hack this out.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >     It would have been great if NetBeans had a seamless transition
>> > >> >> > ,
>> > >> >> built in conversions for old projects to current format.  Seriously,
>> > >> >> I would love to be on that train.  But nope, it seems too much
>> > >> >> handholding and dancing.  I currently have a half dozen active
>> > >> >> Beta’s  that are stuck in a NetBeans 8.1.x / Java 8 scenario, that
>> > >> >> I want to port into NetBeans
>> > >> >> 11.3 / Java 13+ area, but really don’t believe that it is 1: Easy, 2:
>> > >> >> Lasting, 3: Enduring more than another release.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >     I still have reported bugs > 5 years old that are not resolved.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >     I see streams of notes that are asking questions about
>> > >> >> compatibility.  ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I see how
>> > >> >> once the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off is
>> > >> >> almost impossible.  If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this is a
>> > >> >> good trend.
>> > >> >> If
>> > >> >> you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more than
>> > >> >> just an annoyance.  It almost easier to find another IDE to settle in
>> > >> >> on, as the amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably more,
>> > >> >> from old NetBeans to new NetBeans is formidable.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >     Maybe a 3rd party can produce a product that 100% transfer old
>> > >> >> projects to Maven..  I’d rather develop and code than mess around
>> > >> >> with trying to make things move up the NetBeans chain anymore..
>> > >> >> Coding is fun, transitioning is not. I am 100% committed to JavaFX, I
>> > >> >> like the layouts, I like what Gluon has done, I like the look and
>> > >> >> feel.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >     NetBeans 8 –> NetBeans 11+ –> convert ...
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >     I would normally apologize for my rant, but nope. I feel that I
>> > >> >> > am
>> > >> >> now progressing backwards...
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> > >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> > >> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> Bill Melendez, Founder & CEO, MBA
>> > >> HEMS Technology
>> > >> www.hemstech.com
>> > >> www.linkedin.com/in/billmelendez
>> > >> bmelendez@hemstech.com
>> > >> 817-932-0047
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> > >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>> > >>
>> > >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> > >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> > >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>> > >>
>> > >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> > >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>> > >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > tjwolf@gmail.com
>> > http://landofwolf.blogspot.com/
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>>
>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org

For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>]

So let’s have all these laudables contribute to CoolBeans (put that page
back up Emilian and link to it in this thread) and then let’s have
CoolBeans use that pile if cash to sponsor NetCAT 12.0 participation!

Gj

On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 21:28, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:

> You guys are laudable!
>
> Back in late 2018 when I launched CoolBeans I also put up a store page
> as I imagined it was possible to get paid working on NetBeans codebase
> itself. (BTW, no third party can sell "NetBeans" since it's an Apache
> trademark!)
>
> Incorporated entities did use CoolBeans but not once bought a license!
> I did get a formal request via SoftChoice (aka procurement) which
> involved a lot of back and forth and changes before they could buy
> exactly 0 licenses.
>
> I also tried paying for features myself via bounties
> https://www.openbeans.org/bounties/ but nobody claimed one.
>
> Really curious what the conclusion of this talk is and what solution is
> found.
>
> My opinion is that there is no money in NetBeans (excluding some
> legacy Platform apps still going) and even when people want to pay
> other requirements are not met and the deal fails.
>
> It would be cool to have a Tomitribe for NetBeans, but... there is no
> market for IDE subscriptions.
>
> --emi
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 9:53 PM John G. Weed <no...@fastmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > I'd be more than happy to contribute some cash to the appropriately
> formed company, either directly or in some form of licensing agreent. I'd
> also be willing to offer some time, though my expertise is limited to c/c++.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > John .G Weed
> > Cicero Systems, LLC
> > "Reason. Resolve. Respond"
> > (571) 277-9998
> >
> > "Steal a man's reputation for probity, and the more shrewd and clever he
> is, the more hated and mistrusted he'll become." Marcus Tullius Cicero
> (106BC-43BC)
> >
> > Confidentiality Notice:  The information contained in this electronic
> transmission is privileged and confidential and is intended only for the
> recipient(s) named above.  If the reader of this message is not the
> recipient(s) named above, or an authorized agent of such recipient(s)
> responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient(s), you are hereby
> notified that you have received this electronic transmission in error.  Any
> review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this electronic
> transmission including any attachments is strictly prohibited.  If you have
> received this electronic transmission in error, please notify the sender
> immediately.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 13, 2020, at 15:33, Thomas Wolf wrote:
> >
> > I'd be happy to contribute some personal money.  To get my employer to
> pay, it would have to take the form of something like an IDE license or
> support license.  Many engineers in my company use IntelliJ and the company
> pays for those licenses - I don't see why they wouldn't pay for a Netbeans
> "license" for me as long as they have an official place from which to
> 'purchase' it.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Tom
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 3:22 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > Sure! If you’re not willing/able to participate in NetCAT yourself:
> >
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/NetCAT+12.0
> >
> > ...would you be interested in sponsoring others to do so, at say $50 per
> person per NetCAT test spec?
> >
> > Gj
> >
> > On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 20:01, Chris Olsen <co...@mchsi.com> wrote:
> >
> > Thomas and All --
> >
> >    Mine is much the same story.  Would there be some way to contribute
> $$$ (or, in my case, $$) to the team meaningfully?
> >
> >   -- Chris
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Thomas Wolf <tj...@gmail.com>
> > To: John Mc <mc...@gmail.com>
> > Cc: Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net>, bmelendez@hemstech.com,
> Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>, Emilian Bold <
> emilian.bold@gmail.com>, Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>, Netbeans
> Mailing List <us...@netbeans.apache.org>
> > Sent: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 14:10:11 -0400 (EDT)
> > Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
> >
> > My $.02,
> > I’ve been benefitting from NB since I moved over from Visual Cafe in
> 1999 (to give you an idea of what a Java dinosaur I am).  And my only
> contributions in 2+ decades have been bug reports (most of which now lie
> forgotten somewhere in the bowels of the old Bugzilla system) and 1-2
> NetCAT participations.   I have always been willing to pay for this
> excellent tool but never had the desire (or time) to improve it myself.
>  In the early days, I once downloaded it with the faint hope of correcting
> a minor bug - but didn’t even succeed in building it.   For me at least,
> the time it takes to get high enough on the learning curve to contribute
> meaningfully is more than I have been willing to invest (maybe that’ll
> change after I retire in a few years).
> >
> > But like I said, I’ve always been more than happy to pay for the tool.
> I wonder if it’s too late for NB to introduce such an
> alternative/additional model?   Just a thought.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Tom
> >
> >
> > > On Mar 13, 2020, at 9:51 AM, John Mc <mc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > But instead of looking at this financial payment, why not consider an
> time/effort payment?
> > >
> > > At present, I cant really talk, I've been busy, and have provided
> anything back to NetBeans in a while but then I don't have any issues that
> are negatively effecting me.  If and when I do I will hopefully try to
> address them, like I have tried to in the past.
> > >
> > > The way I see it, if we could find out what exactly is blocking people
> from moving to 11.3/12, and then if they can spend even a small amount of
> time/effort into looking at these we can get to an even better NetBeans
> product.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 13:34, Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net>
> wrote:
> > >> Agreed, NetBeans is worth paying for....
> > >>
> > >> I am with Bill, I have not upgraded and I am at 9 similar to 8.
> > >>
> > >> Rob
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: bmelendez@hemstech.com [mailto:bmelendez@hemstech.com]
> > >> Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 9:30 AM
> > >> To: Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
> > >> Cc: Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>; Paul Szudzik <
> pszudzik@throwarock.com>; Netbeans Mailing List <users@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> > >> Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
> > >>
> > >> All:
> > >>
> > >> Been reading all the emails on the NB migration. I do JAVA on NB
> 8.0.2 platform and have not upgraded due to the issues being address. I do
> okay with the NB 8. If this is so critical for getting program done for
> clients, then one should be willing to pay for the platform. See it as a
> business expense and write it off at tax time. Normally, tools are included
> in the cost of a job -so I'm miffed as to the expectations placing the onus
> on NB development to resolve things at no cost. NB is a great platform and
> this is merely a transitional period for it, so I stay with my current
> platform and wait until the dust settles --or pay for the upgrade with
> support if my situation changes. While NB has many issues, it will
> eventually resolve the main ones or become a dust covered relic with
> passing memories.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Bill
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > Indeed, I think the approach Emilian suggests is the way to go. And,
> > >> > indeed, if you don't want to or have the time to move to Maven of
> > >> > Gradle, then a lot of modern options start closing off to you.
> > >> >
> > >> > But, on a different level, for a lot of users of NetBeans, the
> > >> > chickens have come home to roost: a free and open source project,
> such
> > >> > as NetBeans, should never simply have been 'used', it should always
> > >> > have been invested in. For example, simply filing a bug and hoping
> > >> > someone will turn up to fix it has never been the way open source is
> > >> > meant to work.
> > >> >
> > >> > Nothing is ever free -- either you spend time (in understanding how
> > >> > NetBeans works, for example) or money (in paying JetBrains, for
> > >> > example, and then you have engineers creating IntelliJ IDEA for
> you).
> > >> > Not spending anything at all and hoping things will work out for you
> > >> > has never been a sustainable approach.
> > >> >
> > >> > Gjj
> > >> >
> > >> > On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 4:24 PM Emilian Bold <emilian.bold@gmail.com
> >
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> Go and pick Azul Zulu' JDK FX package which comes bundles with
> JavaFX:
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> https://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu-community/?&architecture=x86-64-b
> > >> >> it&package=jdk-fx
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I used it for an older Platform app where I don't feel like
> > >> >> configuring the FX mumbo jumbo.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I doubt anybody can make a magic transition tools since there's too
> > >> >> much people can customize...
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Given the resources available, things are as they are. They could
> > >> >> always be better.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> --emi
> > >> >>
> > >> >> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 5:16 PM Paul Szudzik <
> pszudzik@throwarock.com>
> > >> >> wrote:
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >     I have been a NetBeans user since inception.  I am retired
> now,
> > >> >> but
> > >> >> when I worked, I was one of the few people in my company that was
> an
> > >> >> advocate of NetBeans, and used it instead of the company line,
> > >> >> Eclipse product.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >     Retired now for 10+ years, I used NetBeans to develop my
> > >> >> > products,
> > >> >> and really getting involved in JavaFX big time. I love the cross
> > >> >> platform capability, and use it on both Ubuntu and Windows.
> > >> >> Raspberry Pi, no problem.  Windows, no problem.  I loved it. Then
> > >> >> boom, Oracle takes JavaFX out of the mix, and NetBeans and I start
> > >> >> having major problems. It gets harder and harder to use NetBeans
> with
> > >> >> it’s incompatibility with JavaFX without going through hoops
> every
> > >> >> single time we upgrade.  I have a ton of projects that are a major
> > >> >> pain to go back to without having to dance on a high wire to get to
> > >> >> work.  And I am still not sure I can do this anymore.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >     I have been a computer programmer, designer and architect for
> > >> >> > well
> > >> >> over 53+ years.  I have see many systems come and go, many IDE rise
> > >> >> and fall, many languages surface and crash.  The move to Maven is
> > >> >> beyond my scope now.  I want to program, not to have to regenerate
> > >> >> and rehash my build system every release.  I have tried to move
> over
> > >> >> to 11, and mostly failed.  I have too many modules and programs in
> play to hack this out.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >     It would have been great if NetBeans had a seamless
> transition
> > >> >> > ,
> > >> >> built in conversions for old projects to current format.
> Seriously,
> > >> >> I would love to be on that train.  But nope, it seems too much
> > >> >> handholding and dancing.  I currently have a half dozen active
> > >> >> Beta’s  that are stuck in a NetBeans 8.1.x / Java 8 scenario,
> that
> > >> >> I want to port into NetBeans
> > >> >> 11.3 / Java 13+ area, but really don’t believe that it is 1:
> Easy, 2:
> > >> >> Lasting, 3: Enduring more than another release.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >     I still have reported bugs > 5 years old that are not
> resolved.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >     I see streams of notes that are asking questions about
> > >> >> compatibility.  ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I see
> how
> > >> >> once the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off is
> > >> >> almost impossible.  If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this is a
> > >> >> good trend.
> > >> >> If
> > >> >> you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more
> than
> > >> >> just an annoyance.  It almost easier to find another IDE to settle
> in
> > >> >> on, as the amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably more,
> > >> >> from old NetBeans to new NetBeans is formidable.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >     Maybe a 3rd party can produce a product that 100% transfer
> old
> > >> >> projects to Maven..  I’d rather develop and code than mess around
> > >> >> with trying to make things move up the NetBeans chain anymore..
> > >> >> Coding is fun, transitioning is not. I am 100% committed to
> JavaFX, I
> > >> >> like the layouts, I like what Gluon has done, I like the look and
> > >> >> feel.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >     NetBeans 8 –> NetBeans 11+ –> convert ...
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >     I would normally apologize for my rant, but nope. I feel
> that I
> > >> >> > am
> > >> >> now progressing backwards...
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
> > >> >>
> > >> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > >> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Bill Melendez, Founder & CEO, MBA
> > >> HEMS Technology
> > >> www.hemstech.com
> > >> www.linkedin.com/in/billmelendez
> > >> bmelendez@hemstech.com
> > >> 817-932-0047
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
> > >>
> > >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
> > >>
> > >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > tjwolf@gmail.com
> > http://landofwolf.blogspot.com/
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

You guys are laudable!

Back in late 2018 when I launched CoolBeans I also put up a store page
as I imagined it was possible to get paid working on NetBeans codebase
itself. (BTW, no third party can sell "NetBeans" since it's an Apache
trademark!)

Incorporated entities did use CoolBeans but not once bought a license!
I did get a formal request via SoftChoice (aka procurement) which
involved a lot of back and forth and changes before they could buy
exactly 0 licenses.

I also tried paying for features myself via bounties
https://www.openbeans.org/bounties/ but nobody claimed one.

Really curious what the conclusion of this talk is and what solution is found.

My opinion is that there is no money in NetBeans (excluding some
legacy Platform apps still going) and even when people want to pay
other requirements are not met and the deal fails.

It would be cool to have a Tomitribe for NetBeans, but... there is no
market for IDE subscriptions.

--emi


On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 9:53 PM John G. Weed <no...@fastmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'd be more than happy to contribute some cash to the appropriately formed company, either directly or in some form of licensing agreent. I'd also be willing to offer some time, though my expertise is limited to c/c++.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> John .G Weed
> Cicero Systems, LLC
> "Reason. Resolve. Respond"
> (571) 277-9998
>
> "Steal a man's reputation for probity, and the more shrewd and clever he is, the more hated and mistrusted he'll become." Marcus Tullius Cicero (106BC-43BC)
>
> Confidentiality Notice:  The information contained in this electronic transmission is privileged and confidential and is intended only for the recipient(s) named above.  If the reader of this message is not the recipient(s) named above, or an authorized agent of such recipient(s) responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that you have received this electronic transmission in error.  Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this electronic transmission including any attachments is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately.
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 13, 2020, at 15:33, Thomas Wolf wrote:
>
> I'd be happy to contribute some personal money.  To get my employer to pay, it would have to take the form of something like an IDE license or support license.  Many engineers in my company use IntelliJ and the company pays for those licenses - I don't see why they wouldn't pay for a Netbeans "license" for me as long as they have an official place from which to 'purchase' it.
>
> Best regards,
> Tom
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 3:22 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Sure! If you’re not willing/able to participate in NetCAT yourself:
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/NetCAT+12.0
>
> ...would you be interested in sponsoring others to do so, at say $50 per person per NetCAT test spec?
>
> Gj
>
> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 20:01, Chris Olsen <co...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>
> Thomas and All --
>
>    Mine is much the same story.  Would there be some way to contribute $$$ (or, in my case, $$) to the team meaningfully?
>
>   -- Chris
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Thomas Wolf <tj...@gmail.com>
> To: John Mc <mc...@gmail.com>
> Cc: Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net>, bmelendez@hemstech.com, Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>, Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>, Netbeans Mailing List <us...@netbeans.apache.org>
> Sent: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 14:10:11 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
>
> My $.02,
> I’ve been benefitting from NB since I moved over from Visual Cafe in 1999 (to give you an idea of what a Java dinosaur I am).  And my only contributions in 2+ decades have been bug reports (most of which now lie forgotten somewhere in the bowels of the old Bugzilla system) and 1-2 NetCAT participations.   I have always been willing to pay for this excellent tool but never had the desire (or time) to improve it myself.   In the early days, I once downloaded it with the faint hope of correcting a minor bug - but didn’t even succeed in building it.   For me at least, the time it takes to get high enough on the learning curve to contribute meaningfully is more than I have been willing to invest (maybe that’ll change after I retire in a few years).
>
> But like I said, I’ve always been more than happy to pay for the tool.  I wonder if it’s too late for NB to introduce such an alternative/additional model?   Just a thought.
>
> Best regards,
> Tom
>
>
> > On Mar 13, 2020, at 9:51 AM, John Mc <mc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > But instead of looking at this financial payment, why not consider an time/effort payment?
> >
> > At present, I cant really talk, I've been busy, and have provided anything back to NetBeans in a while but then I don't have any issues that are negatively effecting me.  If and when I do I will hopefully try to address them, like I have tried to in the past.
> >
> > The way I see it, if we could find out what exactly is blocking people from moving to 11.3/12, and then if they can spend even a small amount of time/effort into looking at these we can get to an even better NetBeans product.
> >
> > John
> >
> >> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 13:34, Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net> wrote:
> >> Agreed, NetBeans is worth paying for....
> >>
> >> I am with Bill, I have not upgraded and I am at 9 similar to 8.
> >>
> >> Rob
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: bmelendez@hemstech.com [mailto:bmelendez@hemstech.com]
> >> Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 9:30 AM
> >> To: Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
> >> Cc: Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>; Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>; Netbeans Mailing List <us...@netbeans.apache.org>
> >> Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
> >>
> >> All:
> >>
> >> Been reading all the emails on the NB migration. I do JAVA on NB 8.0.2 platform and have not upgraded due to the issues being address. I do okay with the NB 8. If this is so critical for getting program done for clients, then one should be willing to pay for the platform. See it as a business expense and write it off at tax time. Normally, tools are included in the cost of a job -so I'm miffed as to the expectations placing the onus on NB development to resolve things at no cost. NB is a great platform and this is merely a transitional period for it, so I stay with my current platform and wait until the dust settles --or pay for the upgrade with support if my situation changes. While NB has many issues, it will eventually resolve the main ones or become a dust covered relic with passing memories.
> >>
> >>
> >> Bill
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > Indeed, I think the approach Emilian suggests is the way to go. And,
> >> > indeed, if you don't want to or have the time to move to Maven of
> >> > Gradle, then a lot of modern options start closing off to you.
> >> >
> >> > But, on a different level, for a lot of users of NetBeans, the
> >> > chickens have come home to roost: a free and open source project, such
> >> > as NetBeans, should never simply have been 'used', it should always
> >> > have been invested in. For example, simply filing a bug and hoping
> >> > someone will turn up to fix it has never been the way open source is
> >> > meant to work.
> >> >
> >> > Nothing is ever free -- either you spend time (in understanding how
> >> > NetBeans works, for example) or money (in paying JetBrains, for
> >> > example, and then you have engineers creating IntelliJ IDEA for you).
> >> > Not spending anything at all and hoping things will work out for you
> >> > has never been a sustainable approach.
> >> >
> >> > Gjj
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 4:24 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Go and pick Azul Zulu' JDK FX package which comes bundles with JavaFX:
> >> >>
> >> >> https://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu-community/?&architecture=x86-64-b
> >> >> it&package=jdk-fx
> >> >>
> >> >> I used it for an older Platform app where I don't feel like
> >> >> configuring the FX mumbo jumbo.
> >> >>
> >> >> I doubt anybody can make a magic transition tools since there's too
> >> >> much people can customize...
> >> >>
> >> >> Given the resources available, things are as they are. They could
> >> >> always be better.
> >> >>
> >> >> --emi
> >> >>
> >> >> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 5:16 PM Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     I have been a NetBeans user since inception.  I am retired now,
> >> >> but
> >> >> when I worked, I was one of the few people in my company that was an
> >> >> advocate of NetBeans, and used it instead of the company line,
> >> >> Eclipse product.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     Retired now for 10+ years, I used NetBeans to develop my
> >> >> > products,
> >> >> and really getting involved in JavaFX big time. I love the cross
> >> >> platform capability, and use it on both Ubuntu and Windows.
> >> >> Raspberry Pi, no problem.  Windows, no problem.  I loved it. Then
> >> >> boom, Oracle takes JavaFX out of the mix, and NetBeans and I start
> >> >> having major problems. It gets harder and harder to use NetBeans with
> >> >> it’s incompatibility with JavaFX without going through hoops every
> >> >> single time we upgrade.  I have a ton of projects that are a major
> >> >> pain to go back to without having to dance on a high wire to get to
> >> >> work.  And I am still not sure I can do this anymore.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     I have been a computer programmer, designer and architect for
> >> >> > well
> >> >> over 53+ years.  I have see many systems come and go, many IDE rise
> >> >> and fall, many languages surface and crash.  The move to Maven is
> >> >> beyond my scope now.  I want to program, not to have to regenerate
> >> >> and rehash my build system every release.  I have tried to move over
> >> >> to 11, and mostly failed.  I have too many modules and programs in play to hack this out.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     It would have been great if NetBeans had a seamless transition
> >> >> > ,
> >> >> built in conversions for old projects to current format.  Seriously,
> >> >> I would love to be on that train.  But nope, it seems too much
> >> >> handholding and dancing.  I currently have a half dozen active
> >> >> Beta’s  that are stuck in a NetBeans 8.1.x / Java 8 scenario, that
> >> >> I want to port into NetBeans
> >> >> 11.3 / Java 13+ area, but really don’t believe that it is 1: Easy, 2:
> >> >> Lasting, 3: Enduring more than another release.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     I still have reported bugs > 5 years old that are not resolved.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     I see streams of notes that are asking questions about
> >> >> compatibility.  ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I see how
> >> >> once the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off is
> >> >> almost impossible.  If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this is a
> >> >> good trend.
> >> >> If
> >> >> you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more than
> >> >> just an annoyance.  It almost easier to find another IDE to settle in
> >> >> on, as the amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably more,
> >> >> from old NetBeans to new NetBeans is formidable.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     Maybe a 3rd party can produce a product that 100% transfer old
> >> >> projects to Maven..  I’d rather develop and code than mess around
> >> >> with trying to make things move up the NetBeans chain anymore..
> >> >> Coding is fun, transitioning is not. I am 100% committed to JavaFX, I
> >> >> like the layouts, I like what Gluon has done, I like the look and
> >> >> feel.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     NetBeans 8 –> NetBeans 11+ –> convert ...
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     I would normally apologize for my rant, but nope. I feel that I
> >> >> > am
> >> >> now progressing backwards...
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >> >>
> >> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> >> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Bill Melendez, Founder & CEO, MBA
> >> HEMS Technology
> >> www.hemstech.com
> >> www.linkedin.com/in/billmelendez
> >> bmelendez@hemstech.com
> >> 817-932-0047
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >>
> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >>
> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >>
>
>
>
> --
> tjwolf@gmail.com
> http://landofwolf.blogspot.com/

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org

For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists

Re: Statement of disappointment

["John G. Weed" <no...@fastmail.com>]

I'd be more than happy to contribute some cash to the appropriately formed company, either directly or in some form of licensing agreent. I'd also be willing to offer some time, though my expertise is limited to c/c++. 

Sincerely,

John .G Weed
Cicero Systems, LLC <http://www.cicerosystems.us/>
*"Reason. Resolve. Respond"*
(571) 277-9998

*"Steal a man's reputation for probity, and the more shrewd and clever he is, the more hated and mistrusted he'll become." *Marcus Tullius Cicero (106BC-43BC)

*Confidentiality Notice:* The information contained in this electronic transmission is privileged and confidential and is intended only for the recipient(s) named above. If the reader of this message is not the recipient(s) named above, or an authorized agent of such recipient(s) responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that you have received this electronic transmission in error. Any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this electronic transmission including any attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify the sender immediately.


On Fri, Mar 13, 2020, at 15:33, Thomas Wolf wrote:
> I'd be happy to contribute some personal money. To get my employer to pay, it would have to take the form of something like an IDE license or support license. Many engineers in my company use IntelliJ and the company pays for those licenses - I don't see why they wouldn't pay for a Netbeans "license" for me as long as they have an official place from which to 'purchase' it.
> 
> Best regards,
> Tom
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 3:22 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
>> Sure! If you’re not willing/able to participate in NetCAT yourself:
>> 
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/NetCAT+12.0
>> 
>> ...would you be interested in sponsoring others to do so, at say $50 per person per NetCAT test spec?
>> 
>> Gj
>> 
>> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 20:01, Chris Olsen <co...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>>> Thomas and All --
>>> 
>>>  Mine is much the same story. Would there be some way to contribute $$$ (or, in my case, $$) to the team meaningfully?
>>> 
>>>  -- Chris
>>> 
>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>  From: Thomas Wolf <tj...@gmail.com>
>>>  To: John Mc <mc...@gmail.com>
>>>  Cc: Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net>, bmelendez@hemstech.com, Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>, Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>, Netbeans Mailing List <us...@netbeans.apache.org>
>>>  Sent: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 14:10:11 -0400 (EDT)
>>>  Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
>>> 
>>>  My $.02,
>>>  I’ve been benefitting from NB since I moved over from Visual Cafe in 1999 (to give you an idea of what a Java dinosaur I am). And my only contributions in 2+ decades have been bug reports (most of which now lie forgotten somewhere in the bowels of the old Bugzilla system) and 1-2 NetCAT participations. I have always been willing to pay for this excellent tool but never had the desire (or time) to improve it myself. In the early days, I once downloaded it with the faint hope of correcting a minor bug - but didn’t even succeed in building it. For me at least, the time it takes to get high enough on the learning curve to contribute meaningfully is more than I have been willing to invest (maybe that’ll change after I retire in a few years).
>>> 
>>>  But like I said, I’ve always been more than happy to pay for the tool. I wonder if it’s too late for NB to introduce such an alternative/additional model? Just a thought.
>>> 
>>>  Best regards,
>>>  Tom
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  > On Mar 13, 2020, at 9:51 AM, John Mc <mc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>  > 
>>>  > 
>>>  > But instead of looking at this financial payment, why not consider an time/effort payment?
>>>  > 
>>>  > At present, I cant really talk, I've been busy, and have provided anything back to NetBeans in a while but then I don't have any issues that are negatively effecting me. If and when I do I will hopefully try to address them, like I have tried to in the past.
>>>  > 
>>>  > The way I see it, if we could find out what exactly is blocking people from moving to 11.3/12, and then if they can spend even a small amount of time/effort into looking at these we can get to an even better NetBeans product.
>>>  > 
>>>  > John
>>>  > 
>>>  >> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 13:34, Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net> wrote:
>>>  >> Agreed, NetBeans is worth paying for....
>>>  >> 
>>>  >> I am with Bill, I have not upgraded and I am at 9 similar to 8.
>>>  >> 
>>>  >> Rob
>>>  >> 
>>>  >> -----Original Message-----
>>>  >> From: bmelendez@hemstech.com [mailto:bmelendez@hemstech.com] 
>>>  >> Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 9:30 AM
>>>  >> To: Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
>>>  >> Cc: Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>; Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>; Netbeans Mailing List <us...@netbeans.apache.org>
>>>  >> Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
>>>  >> 
>>>  >> All:
>>>  >> 
>>>  >> Been reading all the emails on the NB migration. I do JAVA on NB 8.0.2 platform and have not upgraded due to the issues being address. I do okay with the NB 8. If this is so critical for getting program done for clients, then one should be willing to pay for the platform. See it as a business expense and write it off at tax time. Normally, tools are included in the cost of a job -so I'm miffed as to the expectations placing the onus on NB development to resolve things at no cost. NB is a great platform and this is merely a transitional period for it, so I stay with my current platform and wait until the dust settles --or pay for the upgrade with support if my situation changes. While NB has many issues, it will eventually resolve the main ones or become a dust covered relic with passing memories.
>>>  >> 
>>>  >> 
>>>  >> Bill
>>>  >> 
>>>  >> 
>>>  >> 
>>>  >> > Indeed, I think the approach Emilian suggests is the way to go. And, 
>>>  >> > indeed, if you don't want to or have the time to move to Maven of 
>>>  >> > Gradle, then a lot of modern options start closing off to you.
>>>  >> >
>>>  >> > But, on a different level, for a lot of users of NetBeans, the 
>>>  >> > chickens have come home to roost: a free and open source project, such 
>>>  >> > as NetBeans, should never simply have been 'used', it should always 
>>>  >> > have been invested in. For example, simply filing a bug and hoping 
>>>  >> > someone will turn up to fix it has never been the way open source is 
>>>  >> > meant to work.
>>>  >> >
>>>  >> > Nothing is ever free -- either you spend time (in understanding how 
>>>  >> > NetBeans works, for example) or money (in paying JetBrains, for 
>>>  >> > example, and then you have engineers creating IntelliJ IDEA for you). 
>>>  >> > Not spending anything at all and hoping things will work out for you 
>>>  >> > has never been a sustainable approach.
>>>  >> >
>>>  >> > Gjj
>>>  >> >
>>>  >> > On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 4:24 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
>>>  >> > wrote:
>>>  >> >
>>>  >> >> Go and pick Azul Zulu' JDK FX package which comes bundles with JavaFX:
>>>  >> >>
>>>  >> >> https://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu-community/?&architecture=x86-64-b
>>>  >> >> it&package=jdk-fx
>>>  >> >>
>>>  >> >> I used it for an older Platform app where I don't feel like 
>>>  >> >> configuring the FX mumbo jumbo.
>>>  >> >>
>>>  >> >> I doubt anybody can make a magic transition tools since there's too 
>>>  >> >> much people can customize...
>>>  >> >>
>>>  >> >> Given the resources available, things are as they are. They could 
>>>  >> >> always be better.
>>>  >> >>
>>>  >> >> --emi
>>>  >> >>
>>>  >> >> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 5:16 PM Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>
>>>  >> >> wrote:
>>>  >> >> >
>>>  >> >> > I have been a NetBeans user since inception. I am retired now,
>>>  >> >> but
>>>  >> >> when I worked, I was one of the few people in my company that was an 
>>>  >> >> advocate of NetBeans, and used it instead of the company line, 
>>>  >> >> Eclipse product.
>>>  >> >> >
>>>  >> >> > Retired now for 10+ years, I used NetBeans to develop my 
>>>  >> >> > products,
>>>  >> >> and really getting involved in JavaFX big time. I love the cross 
>>>  >> >> platform capability, and use it on both Ubuntu and Windows. 
>>>  >> >> Raspberry Pi, no problem. Windows, no problem. I loved it. Then 
>>>  >> >> boom, Oracle takes JavaFX out of the mix, and NetBeans and I start 
>>>  >> >> having major problems. It gets harder and harder to use NetBeans with 
>>>  >> >> it’s incompatibility with JavaFX without going through hoops every 
>>>  >> >> single time we upgrade. I have a ton of projects that are a major 
>>>  >> >> pain to go back to without having to dance on a high wire to get to 
>>>  >> >> work. And I am still not sure I can do this anymore.
>>>  >> >> >
>>>  >> >> > I have been a computer programmer, designer and architect for 
>>>  >> >> > well
>>>  >> >> over 53+ years. I have see many systems come and go, many IDE rise 
>>>  >> >> and fall, many languages surface and crash. The move to Maven is 
>>>  >> >> beyond my scope now. I want to program, not to have to regenerate 
>>>  >> >> and rehash my build system every release. I have tried to move over 
>>>  >> >> to 11, and mostly failed. I have too many modules and programs in play to hack this out.
>>>  >> >> >
>>>  >> >> > It would have been great if NetBeans had a seamless transition 
>>>  >> >> > ,
>>>  >> >> built in conversions for old projects to current format. Seriously, 
>>>  >> >> I would love to be on that train. But nope, it seems too much 
>>>  >> >> handholding and dancing. I currently have a half dozen active 
>>>  >> >> Beta’s that are stuck in a NetBeans 8.1.x / Java 8 scenario, that 
>>>  >> >> I want to port into NetBeans
>>>  >> >> 11.3 / Java 13+ area, but really don’t believe that it is 1: Easy, 2:
>>>  >> >> Lasting, 3: Enduring more than another release.
>>>  >> >> >
>>>  >> >> > I still have reported bugs > 5 years old that are not resolved.
>>>  >> >> >
>>>  >> >> > I see streams of notes that are asking questions about
>>>  >> >> compatibility. ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... ) I see how 
>>>  >> >> once the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off is 
>>>  >> >> almost impossible. If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this is a 
>>>  >> >> good trend.
>>>  >> >> If
>>>  >> >> you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more than 
>>>  >> >> just an annoyance. It almost easier to find another IDE to settle in 
>>>  >> >> on, as the amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably more, 
>>>  >> >> from old NetBeans to new NetBeans is formidable.
>>>  >> >> >
>>>  >> >> > Maybe a 3rd party can produce a product that 100% transfer old
>>>  >> >> projects to Maven.. I’d rather develop and code than mess around 
>>>  >> >> with trying to make things move up the NetBeans chain anymore.. 
>>>  >> >> Coding is fun, transitioning is not. I am 100% committed to JavaFX, I 
>>>  >> >> like the layouts, I like what Gluon has done, I like the look and 
>>>  >> >> feel.
>>>  >> >> >
>>>  >> >> > NetBeans 8 –> NetBeans 11+ –> convert ...
>>>  >> >> >
>>>  >> >> > I would normally apologize for my rant, but nope. I feel that I 
>>>  >> >> > am
>>>  >> >> now progressing backwards...
>>>  >> >> >
>>>  >> >> >
>>>  >> >> >
>>>  >> >>
>>>  >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>  >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>>>  >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>>>  >> >>
>>>  >> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>>>  >> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>>  >> >>
>>>  >> >>
>>>  >> >
>>>  >> 
>>>  >> 
>>>  >> Bill Melendez, Founder & CEO, MBA
>>>  >> HEMS Technology
>>>  >> www.hemstech.com
>>>  >> www.linkedin.com/in/billmelendez
>>>  >> bmelendez@hemstech.com
>>>  >> 817-932-0047
>>>  >> 
>>>  >> 
>>>  >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>  >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>>>  >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>>>  >> 
>>>  >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>>>  >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>>  >> 
>>>  >> 
>>>  >> 
>>>  >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>  >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>>>  >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>>>  >> 
>>>  >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>>>  >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>>  >> 
>>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> tjwolf@gmail.com
> http://landofwolf.blogspot.com/

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Thomas Wolf <tj...@gmail.com>]

I'd be happy to contribute some personal money.  To get my employer to pay,
it would have to take the form of something like an IDE license or support
license.  Many engineers in my company use IntelliJ and the company pays
for those licenses - I don't see why they wouldn't pay for a Netbeans
"license" for me as long as they have an official place from which to
'purchase' it.

Best regards,
Tom



On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 3:22 PM Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
wrote:

> Sure! If you’re not willing/able to participate in NetCAT yourself:
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/NetCAT+12.0
>
> ...would you be interested in sponsoring others to do so, at say $50 per
> person per NetCAT test spec?
>
> Gj
>
> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 20:01, Chris Olsen <co...@mchsi.com> wrote:
>
>> Thomas and All --
>>
>>    Mine is much the same story.  Would there be some way to contribute
>> $$$ (or, in my case, $$) to the team meaningfully?
>>
>>   -- Chris
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Thomas Wolf <tj...@gmail.com>
>> To: John Mc <mc...@gmail.com>
>> Cc: Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net>, bmelendez@hemstech.com, Geertjan
>> Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>,
>> Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>, Netbeans Mailing List <
>> users@netbeans.apache.org>
>> Sent: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 14:10:11 -0400 (EDT)
>> Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
>>
>> My $.02,
>> I’ve been benefitting from NB since I moved over from Visual Cafe in 1999
>> (to give you an idea of what a Java dinosaur I am).  And my only
>> contributions in 2+ decades have been bug reports (most of which now lie
>> forgotten somewhere in the bowels of the old Bugzilla system) and 1-2
>> NetCAT participations.   I have always been willing to pay for this
>> excellent tool but never had the desire (or time) to improve it myself.
>>  In the early days, I once downloaded it with the faint hope of correcting
>> a minor bug - but didn’t even succeed in building it.   For me at least,
>> the time it takes to get high enough on the learning curve to contribute
>> meaningfully is more than I have been willing to invest (maybe that’ll
>> change after I retire in a few years).
>>
>> But like I said, I’ve always been more than happy to pay for the tool.  I
>> wonder if it’s too late for NB to introduce such an alternative/additional
>> model?   Just a thought.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Tom
>>
>>
>> > On Mar 13, 2020, at 9:51 AM, John Mc <mc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > 
>> > But instead of looking at this financial payment, why not consider an
>> time/effort payment?
>> >
>> > At present, I cant really talk, I've been busy, and have provided
>> anything back to NetBeans in a while but then I don't have any issues that
>> are negatively effecting me.  If and when I do I will hopefully try to
>> address them, like I have tried to in the past.
>> >
>> > The way I see it, if we could find out what exactly is blocking people
>> from moving to 11.3/12, and then if they can spend even a small amount of
>> time/effort into looking at these we can get to an even better NetBeans
>> product.
>> >
>> > John
>> >
>> >> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 13:34, Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net>
>> wrote:
>> >> Agreed, NetBeans is worth paying for....
>> >>
>> >> I am with Bill, I have not upgraded and I am at 9 similar to 8.
>> >>
>> >> Rob
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: bmelendez@hemstech.com [mailto:bmelendez@hemstech.com]
>> >> Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 9:30 AM
>> >> To: Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
>> >> Cc: Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>; Paul Szudzik <
>> pszudzik@throwarock.com>; Netbeans Mailing List <
>> users@netbeans.apache.org>
>> >> Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
>> >>
>> >> All:
>> >>
>> >> Been reading all the emails on the NB migration. I do JAVA on NB 8.0.2
>> platform and have not upgraded due to the issues being address. I do okay
>> with the NB 8. If this is so critical for getting program done for clients,
>> then one should be willing to pay for the platform. See it as a business
>> expense and write it off at tax time. Normally, tools are included in the
>> cost of a job -so I'm miffed as to the expectations placing the onus on NB
>> development to resolve things at no cost. NB is a great platform and this
>> is merely a transitional period for it, so I stay with my current platform
>> and wait until the dust settles --or pay for the upgrade with support if my
>> situation changes. While NB has many issues, it will eventually resolve the
>> main ones or become a dust covered relic with passing memories.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Bill
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Indeed, I think the approach Emilian suggests is the way to go. And,
>> >> > indeed, if you don't want to or have the time to move to Maven of
>> >> > Gradle, then a lot of modern options start closing off to you.
>> >> >
>> >> > But, on a different level, for a lot of users of NetBeans, the
>> >> > chickens have come home to roost: a free and open source project,
>> such
>> >> > as NetBeans, should never simply have been 'used', it should always
>> >> > have been invested in. For example, simply filing a bug and hoping
>> >> > someone will turn up to fix it has never been the way open source is
>> >> > meant to work.
>> >> >
>> >> > Nothing is ever free -- either you spend time (in understanding how
>> >> > NetBeans works, for example) or money (in paying JetBrains, for
>> >> > example, and then you have engineers creating IntelliJ IDEA for
>> you).
>> >> > Not spending anything at all and hoping things will work out for you
>> >> > has never been a sustainable approach.
>> >> >
>> >> > Gjj
>> >> >
>> >> > On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 4:24 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Go and pick Azul Zulu' JDK FX package which comes bundles with
>> JavaFX:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> https://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu-community/?&architecture=x86-64-b
>> >> >> it&package=jdk-fx
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I used it for an older Platform app where I don't feel like
>> >> >> configuring the FX mumbo jumbo.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I doubt anybody can make a magic transition tools since there's too
>> >> >> much people can customize...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Given the resources available, things are as they are. They could
>> >> >> always be better.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --emi
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 5:16 PM Paul Szudzik <
>> pszudzik@throwarock.com>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >     I have been a NetBeans user since inception.  I am retired
>> now,
>> >> >> but
>> >> >> when I worked, I was one of the few people in my company that was
>> an
>> >> >> advocate of NetBeans, and used it instead of the company line,
>> >> >> Eclipse product.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >     Retired now for 10+ years, I used NetBeans to develop my
>> >> >> > products,
>> >> >> and really getting involved in JavaFX big time. I love the cross
>> >> >> platform capability, and use it on both Ubuntu and Windows.
>> >> >> Raspberry Pi, no problem.  Windows, no problem.  I loved it. Then
>> >> >> boom, Oracle takes JavaFX out of the mix, and NetBeans and I start
>> >> >> having major problems. It gets harder and harder to use NetBeans
>> with
>> >> >> it’s incompatibility with JavaFX without going through hoops
>> every
>> >> >> single time we upgrade.  I have a ton of projects that are a major
>> >> >> pain to go back to without having to dance on a high wire to get to
>> >> >> work.  And I am still not sure I can do this anymore.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >     I have been a computer programmer, designer and architect for
>> >> >> > well
>> >> >> over 53+ years.  I have see many systems come and go, many IDE rise
>> >> >> and fall, many languages surface and crash.  The move to Maven is
>> >> >> beyond my scope now.  I want to program, not to have to regenerate
>> >> >> and rehash my build system every release.  I have tried to move
>> over
>> >> >> to 11, and mostly failed.  I have too many modules and programs in
>> play to hack this out.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >     It would have been great if NetBeans had a seamless
>> transition
>> >> >> > ,
>> >> >> built in conversions for old projects to current format.
>> Seriously,
>> >> >> I would love to be on that train.  But nope, it seems too much
>> >> >> handholding and dancing.  I currently have a half dozen active
>> >> >> Beta’s  that are stuck in a NetBeans 8.1.x / Java 8 scenario,
>> that
>> >> >> I want to port into NetBeans
>> >> >> 11.3 / Java 13+ area, but really don’t believe that it is 1:
>> Easy, 2:
>> >> >> Lasting, 3: Enduring more than another release.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >     I still have reported bugs > 5 years old that are not
>> resolved.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >     I see streams of notes that are asking questions about
>> >> >> compatibility.  ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I see
>> how
>> >> >> once the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off is
>> >> >> almost impossible.  If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this is a
>> >> >> good trend.
>> >> >> If
>> >> >> you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more
>> than
>> >> >> just an annoyance.  It almost easier to find another IDE to settle
>> in
>> >> >> on, as the amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably more,
>> >> >> from old NetBeans to new NetBeans is formidable.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >     Maybe a 3rd party can produce a product that 100% transfer old
>> >> >> projects to Maven..  I’d rather develop and code than mess around
>> >> >> with trying to make things move up the NetBeans chain anymore..
>> >> >> Coding is fun, transitioning is not. I am 100% committed to JavaFX,
>> I
>> >> >> like the layouts, I like what Gluon has done, I like the look and
>> >> >> feel.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >     NetBeans 8 –> NetBeans 11+ –> convert ...
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >     I would normally apologize for my rant, but nope. I feel that
>> I
>> >> >> > am
>> >> >> now progressing backwards...
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>> >> >>
>> >> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> >> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Bill Melendez, Founder & CEO, MBA
>> >> HEMS Technology
>> >> www.hemstech.com
>> >> www.linkedin.com/in/billmelendez
>> >> bmelendez@hemstech.com
>> >> 817-932-0047
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>> >>
>> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>> >>
>> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>> >>
>>
>>

-- 
tjwolf@gmail.com
http://landofwolf.blogspot.com/

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Chris Olsen <co...@mchsi.com>]

----- Original Message -----
From: Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
To: Chris Olsen <co...@mchsi.com>
Cc: Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>, John Mc <mc...@gmail.com>, Netbeans Mailing List <us...@netbeans.apache.org>, Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>, Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net>, Thomas Wolf <tj...@gmail.com>, bmelendez@hemstech.com
Sent: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 15:22:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment

Sure! If you’re not willing/able to participate in NetCAT yourself:

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/NetCAT+12.0

...would you be interested in sponsoring others to do so, at say $50 per
person per NetCAT test spec?

Gj

On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 20:01, Chris Olsen <co...@mchsi.com> wrote:

> Thomas and All --
>
>    Mine is much the same story.  Would there be some way to contribute $$$
> (or, in my case, $$) to the team meaningfully?
>
>   -- Chris
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Thomas Wolf <tj...@gmail.com>
> To: John Mc <mc...@gmail.com>
> Cc: Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net>, bmelendez@hemstech.com, Geertjan
> Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>,
> Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>, Netbeans Mailing List <
> users@netbeans.apache.org>
> Sent: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 14:10:11 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
>
> My $.02,
> I’ve been benefitting from NB since I moved over from Visual Cafe in 1999
> (to give you an idea of what a Java dinosaur I am).  And my only
> contributions in 2+ decades have been bug reports (most of which now lie
> forgotten somewhere in the bowels of the old Bugzilla system) and 1-2
> NetCAT participations.   I have always been willing to pay for this
> excellent tool but never had the desire (or time) to improve it myself.
>  In the early days, I once downloaded it with the faint hope of correcting
> a minor bug - but didn’t even succeed in building it.   For me at least,
> the time it takes to get high enough on the learning curve to contribute
> meaningfully is more than I have been willing to invest (maybe that’ll
> change after I retire in a few years).
>
> But like I said, I’ve always been more than happy to pay for the tool.  I
> wonder if it’s too late for NB to introduce such an alternative/additional
> model?   Just a thought.
>
> Best regards,
> Tom
>
>
> > On Mar 13, 2020, at 9:51 AM, John Mc <mc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > But instead of looking at this financial payment, why not consider an
> time/effort payment?
> >
> > At present, I cant really talk, I've been busy, and have provided
> anything back to NetBeans in a while but then I don't have any issues that
> are negatively effecting me.  If and when I do I will hopefully try to
> address them, like I have tried to in the past.
> >
> > The way I see it, if we could find out what exactly is blocking people
> from moving to 11.3/12, and then if they can spend even a small amount of
> time/effort into looking at these we can get to an even better NetBeans
> product.
> >
> > John
> >
> >> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 13:34, Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net> wrote:
> >> Agreed, NetBeans is worth paying for....
> >>
> >> I am with Bill, I have not upgraded and I am at 9 similar to 8.
> >>
> >> Rob
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: bmelendez@hemstech.com [mailto:bmelendez@hemstech.com]
> >> Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 9:30 AM
> >> To: Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
> >> Cc: Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>; Paul Szudzik <
> pszudzik@throwarock.com>; Netbeans Mailing List <users@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> >> Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
> >>
> >> All:
> >>
> >> Been reading all the emails on the NB migration. I do JAVA on NB 8.0.2
> platform and have not upgraded due to the issues being address. I do okay
> with the NB 8. If this is so critical for getting program done for clients,
> then one should be willing to pay for the platform. See it as a business
> expense and write it off at tax time. Normally, tools are included in the
> cost of a job -so I'm miffed as to the expectations placing the onus on NB
> development to resolve things at no cost. NB is a great platform and this
> is merely a transitional period for it, so I stay with my current platform
> and wait until the dust settles --or pay for the upgrade with support if my
> situation changes. While NB has many issues, it will eventually resolve the
> main ones or become a dust covered relic with passing memories.
> >>
> >>
> >> Bill
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > Indeed, I think the approach Emilian suggests is the way to go. And,
> >> > indeed, if you don't want to or have the time to move to Maven of
> >> > Gradle, then a lot of modern options start closing off to you.
> >> >
> >> > But, on a different level, for a lot of users of NetBeans, the
> >> > chickens have come home to roost: a free and open source project,
> such
> >> > as NetBeans, should never simply have been 'used', it should always
> >> > have been invested in. For example, simply filing a bug and hoping
> >> > someone will turn up to fix it has never been the way open source is
> >> > meant to work.
> >> >
> >> > Nothing is ever free -- either you spend time (in understanding how
> >> > NetBeans works, for example) or money (in paying JetBrains, for
> >> > example, and then you have engineers creating IntelliJ IDEA for you).
> >> > Not spending anything at all and hoping things will work out for you
> >> > has never been a sustainable approach.
> >> >
> >> > Gjj
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 4:24 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Go and pick Azul Zulu' JDK FX package which comes bundles with
> JavaFX:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> https://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu-community/?&architecture=x86-64-b
> >> >> it&package=jdk-fx
> >> >>
> >> >> I used it for an older Platform app where I don't feel like
> >> >> configuring the FX mumbo jumbo.
> >> >>
> >> >> I doubt anybody can make a magic transition tools since there's too
> >> >> much people can customize...
> >> >>
> >> >> Given the resources available, things are as they are. They could
> >> >> always be better.
> >> >>
> >> >> --emi
> >> >>
> >> >> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 5:16 PM Paul Szudzik <pszudzik@throwarock.com
> >
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     I have been a NetBeans user since inception.  I am retired now,
> >> >> but
> >> >> when I worked, I was one of the few people in my company that was an
> >> >> advocate of NetBeans, and used it instead of the company line,
> >> >> Eclipse product.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     Retired now for 10+ years, I used NetBeans to develop my
> >> >> > products,
> >> >> and really getting involved in JavaFX big time. I love the cross
> >> >> platform capability, and use it on both Ubuntu and Windows.
> >> >> Raspberry Pi, no problem.  Windows, no problem.  I loved it. Then
> >> >> boom, Oracle takes JavaFX out of the mix, and NetBeans and I start
> >> >> having major problems. It gets harder and harder to use NetBeans
> with
> >> >> it’s incompatibility with JavaFX without going through hoops every
> >> >> single time we upgrade.  I have a ton of projects that are a major
> >> >> pain to go back to without having to dance on a high wire to get to
> >> >> work.  And I am still not sure I can do this anymore.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     I have been a computer programmer, designer and architect for
> >> >> > well
> >> >> over 53+ years.  I have see many systems come and go, many IDE rise
> >> >> and fall, many languages surface and crash.  The move to Maven is
> >> >> beyond my scope now.  I want to program, not to have to regenerate
> >> >> and rehash my build system every release.  I have tried to move over
> >> >> to 11, and mostly failed.  I have too many modules and programs in
> play to hack this out.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     It would have been great if NetBeans had a seamless transition
> >> >> > ,
> >> >> built in conversions for old projects to current format.  Seriously,
> >> >> I would love to be on that train.  But nope, it seems too much
> >> >> handholding and dancing.  I currently have a half dozen active
> >> >> Beta’s  that are stuck in a NetBeans 8.1.x / Java 8 scenario, that
> >> >> I want to port into NetBeans
> >> >> 11.3 / Java 13+ area, but really don’t believe that it is 1: Easy,
> 2:
> >> >> Lasting, 3: Enduring more than another release.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     I still have reported bugs > 5 years old that are not resolved.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     I see streams of notes that are asking questions about
> >> >> compatibility.  ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I see how
> >> >> once the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off is
> >> >> almost impossible.  If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this is a
> >> >> good trend.
> >> >> If
> >> >> you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more
> than
> >> >> just an annoyance.  It almost easier to find another IDE to settle
> in
> >> >> on, as the amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably more,
> >> >> from old NetBeans to new NetBeans is formidable.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     Maybe a 3rd party can produce a product that 100% transfer old
> >> >> projects to Maven..  I’d rather develop and code than mess around
> >> >> with trying to make things move up the NetBeans chain anymore..
> >> >> Coding is fun, transitioning is not. I am 100% committed to JavaFX,
> I
> >> >> like the layouts, I like what Gluon has done, I like the look and
> >> >> feel.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     NetBeans 8 –> NetBeans 11+ –> convert ...
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     I would normally apologize for my rant, but nope. I feel that
> I
> >> >> > am
> >> >> now progressing backwards...
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >> >>
> >> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> >> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Bill Melendez, Founder & CEO, MBA
> >> HEMS Technology
> >> www.hemstech.com
> >> www.linkedin.com/in/billmelendez
> >> bmelendez@hemstech.com
> >> 817-932-0047
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >>
> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >>
> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >>
>
>


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org

For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>]

Sure! If you’re not willing/able to participate in NetCAT yourself:

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/NetCAT+12.0

...would you be interested in sponsoring others to do so, at say $50 per
person per NetCAT test spec?

Gj

On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 20:01, Chris Olsen <co...@mchsi.com> wrote:

> Thomas and All --
>
>    Mine is much the same story.  Would there be some way to contribute $$$
> (or, in my case, $$) to the team meaningfully?
>
>   -- Chris
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Thomas Wolf <tj...@gmail.com>
> To: John Mc <mc...@gmail.com>
> Cc: Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net>, bmelendez@hemstech.com, Geertjan
> Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>,
> Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>, Netbeans Mailing List <
> users@netbeans.apache.org>
> Sent: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 14:10:11 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
>
> My $.02,
> I’ve been benefitting from NB since I moved over from Visual Cafe in 1999
> (to give you an idea of what a Java dinosaur I am).  And my only
> contributions in 2+ decades have been bug reports (most of which now lie
> forgotten somewhere in the bowels of the old Bugzilla system) and 1-2
> NetCAT participations.   I have always been willing to pay for this
> excellent tool but never had the desire (or time) to improve it myself.
>  In the early days, I once downloaded it with the faint hope of correcting
> a minor bug - but didn’t even succeed in building it.   For me at least,
> the time it takes to get high enough on the learning curve to contribute
> meaningfully is more than I have been willing to invest (maybe that’ll
> change after I retire in a few years).
>
> But like I said, I’ve always been more than happy to pay for the tool.  I
> wonder if it’s too late for NB to introduce such an alternative/additional
> model?   Just a thought.
>
> Best regards,
> Tom
>
>
> > On Mar 13, 2020, at 9:51 AM, John Mc <mc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > But instead of looking at this financial payment, why not consider an
> time/effort payment?
> >
> > At present, I cant really talk, I've been busy, and have provided
> anything back to NetBeans in a while but then I don't have any issues that
> are negatively effecting me.  If and when I do I will hopefully try to
> address them, like I have tried to in the past.
> >
> > The way I see it, if we could find out what exactly is blocking people
> from moving to 11.3/12, and then if they can spend even a small amount of
> time/effort into looking at these we can get to an even better NetBeans
> product.
> >
> > John
> >
> >> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 13:34, Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net> wrote:
> >> Agreed, NetBeans is worth paying for....
> >>
> >> I am with Bill, I have not upgraded and I am at 9 similar to 8.
> >>
> >> Rob
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: bmelendez@hemstech.com [mailto:bmelendez@hemstech.com]
> >> Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 9:30 AM
> >> To: Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
> >> Cc: Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>; Paul Szudzik <
> pszudzik@throwarock.com>; Netbeans Mailing List <users@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> >> Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
> >>
> >> All:
> >>
> >> Been reading all the emails on the NB migration. I do JAVA on NB 8.0.2
> platform and have not upgraded due to the issues being address. I do okay
> with the NB 8. If this is so critical for getting program done for clients,
> then one should be willing to pay for the platform. See it as a business
> expense and write it off at tax time. Normally, tools are included in the
> cost of a job -so I'm miffed as to the expectations placing the onus on NB
> development to resolve things at no cost. NB is a great platform and this
> is merely a transitional period for it, so I stay with my current platform
> and wait until the dust settles --or pay for the upgrade with support if my
> situation changes. While NB has many issues, it will eventually resolve the
> main ones or become a dust covered relic with passing memories.
> >>
> >>
> >> Bill
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > Indeed, I think the approach Emilian suggests is the way to go. And,
> >> > indeed, if you don't want to or have the time to move to Maven of
> >> > Gradle, then a lot of modern options start closing off to you.
> >> >
> >> > But, on a different level, for a lot of users of NetBeans, the
> >> > chickens have come home to roost: a free and open source project,
> such
> >> > as NetBeans, should never simply have been 'used', it should always
> >> > have been invested in. For example, simply filing a bug and hoping
> >> > someone will turn up to fix it has never been the way open source is
> >> > meant to work.
> >> >
> >> > Nothing is ever free -- either you spend time (in understanding how
> >> > NetBeans works, for example) or money (in paying JetBrains, for
> >> > example, and then you have engineers creating IntelliJ IDEA for you).
> >> > Not spending anything at all and hoping things will work out for you
> >> > has never been a sustainable approach.
> >> >
> >> > Gjj
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 4:24 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Go and pick Azul Zulu' JDK FX package which comes bundles with
> JavaFX:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> https://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu-community/?&architecture=x86-64-b
> >> >> it&package=jdk-fx
> >> >>
> >> >> I used it for an older Platform app where I don't feel like
> >> >> configuring the FX mumbo jumbo.
> >> >>
> >> >> I doubt anybody can make a magic transition tools since there's too
> >> >> much people can customize...
> >> >>
> >> >> Given the resources available, things are as they are. They could
> >> >> always be better.
> >> >>
> >> >> --emi
> >> >>
> >> >> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 5:16 PM Paul Szudzik <pszudzik@throwarock.com
> >
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     I have been a NetBeans user since inception.  I am retired now,
> >> >> but
> >> >> when I worked, I was one of the few people in my company that was an
> >> >> advocate of NetBeans, and used it instead of the company line,
> >> >> Eclipse product.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     Retired now for 10+ years, I used NetBeans to develop my
> >> >> > products,
> >> >> and really getting involved in JavaFX big time. I love the cross
> >> >> platform capability, and use it on both Ubuntu and Windows.
> >> >> Raspberry Pi, no problem.  Windows, no problem.  I loved it. Then
> >> >> boom, Oracle takes JavaFX out of the mix, and NetBeans and I start
> >> >> having major problems. It gets harder and harder to use NetBeans
> with
> >> >> it’s incompatibility with JavaFX without going through hoops every
> >> >> single time we upgrade.  I have a ton of projects that are a major
> >> >> pain to go back to without having to dance on a high wire to get to
> >> >> work.  And I am still not sure I can do this anymore.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     I have been a computer programmer, designer and architect for
> >> >> > well
> >> >> over 53+ years.  I have see many systems come and go, many IDE rise
> >> >> and fall, many languages surface and crash.  The move to Maven is
> >> >> beyond my scope now.  I want to program, not to have to regenerate
> >> >> and rehash my build system every release.  I have tried to move over
> >> >> to 11, and mostly failed.  I have too many modules and programs in
> play to hack this out.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     It would have been great if NetBeans had a seamless transition
> >> >> > ,
> >> >> built in conversions for old projects to current format.  Seriously,
> >> >> I would love to be on that train.  But nope, it seems too much
> >> >> handholding and dancing.  I currently have a half dozen active
> >> >> Beta’s  that are stuck in a NetBeans 8.1.x / Java 8 scenario, that
> >> >> I want to port into NetBeans
> >> >> 11.3 / Java 13+ area, but really don’t believe that it is 1: Easy,
> 2:
> >> >> Lasting, 3: Enduring more than another release.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     I still have reported bugs > 5 years old that are not resolved.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     I see streams of notes that are asking questions about
> >> >> compatibility.  ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I see how
> >> >> once the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off is
> >> >> almost impossible.  If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this is a
> >> >> good trend.
> >> >> If
> >> >> you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more
> than
> >> >> just an annoyance.  It almost easier to find another IDE to settle
> in
> >> >> on, as the amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably more,
> >> >> from old NetBeans to new NetBeans is formidable.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     Maybe a 3rd party can produce a product that 100% transfer old
> >> >> projects to Maven..  I’d rather develop and code than mess around
> >> >> with trying to make things move up the NetBeans chain anymore..
> >> >> Coding is fun, transitioning is not. I am 100% committed to JavaFX,
> I
> >> >> like the layouts, I like what Gluon has done, I like the look and
> >> >> feel.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     NetBeans 8 –> NetBeans 11+ –> convert ...
> >> >> >
> >> >> >     I would normally apologize for my rant, but nope. I feel that
> I
> >> >> > am
> >> >> now progressing backwards...
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >> >>
> >> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> >> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Bill Melendez, Founder & CEO, MBA
> >> HEMS Technology
> >> www.hemstech.com
> >> www.linkedin.com/in/billmelendez
> >> bmelendez@hemstech.com
> >> 817-932-0047
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >>
> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >>
> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >>
>
>

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Chris Olsen <co...@mchsi.com>]

Thomas and All --

   Mine is much the same story.  Would there be some way to contribute $$$ (or, in my case, $$) to the team meaningfully?

  -- Chris

----- Original Message -----
From: Thomas Wolf <tj...@gmail.com>
To: John Mc <mc...@gmail.com>
Cc: Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net>, bmelendez@hemstech.com, Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>, Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>, Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>, Netbeans Mailing List <us...@netbeans.apache.org>
Sent: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 14:10:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment

My $.02,
I’ve been benefitting from NB since I moved over from Visual Cafe in 1999 (to give you an idea of what a Java dinosaur I am).  And my only contributions in 2+ decades have been bug reports (most of which now lie forgotten somewhere in the bowels of the old Bugzilla system) and 1-2 NetCAT participations.   I have always been willing to pay for this excellent tool but never had the desire (or time) to improve it myself.   In the early days, I once downloaded it with the faint hope of correcting a minor bug - but didn’t even succeed in building it.   For me at least, the time it takes to get high enough on the learning curve to contribute meaningfully is more than I have been willing to invest (maybe that’ll change after I retire in a few years).

But like I said, I’ve always been more than happy to pay for the tool.  I wonder if it’s too late for NB to introduce such an alternative/additional model?   Just a thought.

Best regards,
Tom


> On Mar 13, 2020, at 9:51 AM, John Mc <mc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> But instead of looking at this financial payment, why not consider an time/effort payment?
> 
> At present, I cant really talk, I've been busy, and have provided anything back to NetBeans in a while but then I don't have any issues that are negatively effecting me.  If and when I do I will hopefully try to address them, like I have tried to in the past.
> 
> The way I see it, if we could find out what exactly is blocking people from moving to 11.3/12, and then if they can spend even a small amount of time/effort into looking at these we can get to an even better NetBeans product.
> 
> John
> 
>> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 13:34, Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net> wrote:
>> Agreed, NetBeans is worth paying for....
>> 
>> I am with Bill, I have not upgraded and I am at 9 similar to 8.
>> 
>> Rob
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: bmelendez@hemstech.com [mailto:bmelendez@hemstech.com] 
>> Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 9:30 AM
>> To: Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
>> Cc: Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>; Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>; Netbeans Mailing List <us...@netbeans.apache.org>
>> Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
>> 
>> All:
>> 
>> Been reading all the emails on the NB migration. I do JAVA on NB 8.0.2 platform and have not upgraded due to the issues being address. I do okay with the NB 8. If this is so critical for getting program done for clients, then one should be willing to pay for the platform. See it as a business expense and write it off at tax time. Normally, tools are included in the cost of a job -so I'm miffed as to the expectations placing the onus on NB development to resolve things at no cost. NB is a great platform and this is merely a transitional period for it, so I stay with my current platform and wait until the dust settles --or pay for the upgrade with support if my situation changes. While NB has many issues, it will eventually resolve the main ones or become a dust covered relic with passing memories.
>> 
>> 
>> Bill
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> > Indeed, I think the approach Emilian suggests is the way to go. And, 
>> > indeed, if you don't want to or have the time to move to Maven of 
>> > Gradle, then a lot of modern options start closing off to you.
>> >
>> > But, on a different level, for a lot of users of NetBeans, the 
>> > chickens have come home to roost: a free and open source project, such 
>> > as NetBeans, should never simply have been 'used', it should always 
>> > have been invested in. For example, simply filing a bug and hoping 
>> > someone will turn up to fix it has never been the way open source is 
>> > meant to work.
>> >
>> > Nothing is ever free -- either you spend time (in understanding how 
>> > NetBeans works, for example) or money (in paying JetBrains, for 
>> > example, and then you have engineers creating IntelliJ IDEA for you). 
>> > Not spending anything at all and hoping things will work out for you 
>> > has never been a sustainable approach.
>> >
>> > Gjj
>> >
>> > On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 4:24 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Go and pick Azul Zulu' JDK FX package which comes bundles with JavaFX:
>> >>
>> >> https://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu-community/?&architecture=x86-64-b
>> >> it&package=jdk-fx
>> >>
>> >> I used it for an older Platform app where I don't feel like 
>> >> configuring the FX mumbo jumbo.
>> >>
>> >> I doubt anybody can make a magic transition tools since there's too 
>> >> much people can customize...
>> >>
>> >> Given the resources available, things are as they are. They could 
>> >> always be better.
>> >>
>> >> --emi
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 5:16 PM Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >     I have been a NetBeans user since inception.  I am retired now,
>> >> but
>> >> when I worked, I was one of the few people in my company that was an 
>> >> advocate of NetBeans, and used it instead of the company line, 
>> >> Eclipse product.
>> >> >
>> >> >     Retired now for 10+ years, I used NetBeans to develop my 
>> >> > products,
>> >> and really getting involved in JavaFX big time. I love the cross 
>> >> platform capability, and use it on both Ubuntu and Windows.  
>> >> Raspberry Pi, no problem.  Windows, no problem.  I loved it. Then 
>> >> boom, Oracle takes JavaFX out of the mix, and NetBeans and I start 
>> >> having major problems. It gets harder and harder to use NetBeans with 
>> >> it’s incompatibility with JavaFX without going through hoops every 
>> >> single time we upgrade.  I have a ton of projects that are a major 
>> >> pain to go back to without having to dance on a high wire to get to 
>> >> work.  And I am still not sure I can do this anymore.
>> >> >
>> >> >     I have been a computer programmer, designer and architect for 
>> >> > well
>> >> over 53+ years.  I have see many systems come and go, many IDE rise 
>> >> and fall, many languages surface and crash.  The move to Maven is 
>> >> beyond my scope now.  I want to program, not to have to regenerate 
>> >> and rehash my build system every release.  I have tried to move over 
>> >> to 11, and mostly failed.  I have too many modules and programs in play to hack this out.
>> >> >
>> >> >     It would have been great if NetBeans had a seamless transition 
>> >> > ,
>> >> built in conversions for old projects to current format.  Seriously, 
>> >> I would love to be on that train.  But nope, it seems too much 
>> >> handholding and dancing.  I currently have a half dozen active 
>> >> Beta’s  that are stuck in a NetBeans 8.1.x / Java 8 scenario, that 
>> >> I want to port into NetBeans
>> >> 11.3 / Java 13+ area, but really don’t believe that it is 1: Easy, 2:
>> >> Lasting, 3: Enduring more than another release.
>> >> >
>> >> >     I still have reported bugs > 5 years old that are not resolved.
>> >> >
>> >> >     I see streams of notes that are asking questions about
>> >> compatibility.  ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I see how 
>> >> once the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off is 
>> >> almost impossible.  If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this is a 
>> >> good trend.
>> >> If
>> >> you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more than 
>> >> just an annoyance.  It almost easier to find another IDE to settle in 
>> >> on, as the amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably more, 
>> >> from old NetBeans to new NetBeans is formidable.
>> >> >
>> >> >     Maybe a 3rd party can produce a product that 100% transfer old
>> >> projects to Maven..  I’d rather develop and code than mess around 
>> >> with trying to make things move up the NetBeans chain anymore..  
>> >> Coding is fun, transitioning is not. I am 100% committed to JavaFX, I 
>> >> like the layouts, I like what Gluon has done, I like the look and 
>> >> feel.
>> >> >
>> >> >     NetBeans 8 –> NetBeans 11+ –> convert ...
>> >> >
>> >> >     I would normally apologize for my rant, but nope. I feel that I 
>> >> > am
>> >> now progressing backwards...
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>> >>
>> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> 
>> 
>> Bill Melendez, Founder & CEO, MBA
>> HEMS Technology
>> www.hemstech.com
>> www.linkedin.com/in/billmelendez
>> bmelendez@hemstech.com
>> 817-932-0047
>> 
>> 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>> 
>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>> 
>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>> 


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org

For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Thomas Wolf <tj...@gmail.com>]

My $.02,
I’ve been benefitting from NB since I moved over from Visual Cafe in 1999 (to give you an idea of what a Java dinosaur I am).  And my only contributions in 2+ decades have been bug reports (most of which now lie forgotten somewhere in the bowels of the old Bugzilla system) and 1-2 NetCAT participations.   I have always been willing to pay for this excellent tool but never had the desire (or time) to improve it myself.   In the early days, I once downloaded it with the faint hope of correcting a minor bug - but didn’t even succeed in building it.   For me at least, the time it takes to get high enough on the learning curve to contribute meaningfully is more than I have been willing to invest (maybe that’ll change after I retire in a few years).

But like I said, I’ve always been more than happy to pay for the tool.  I wonder if it’s too late for NB to introduce such an alternative/additional model?   Just a thought.

Best regards,
Tom


> On Mar 13, 2020, at 9:51 AM, John Mc <mc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> But instead of looking at this financial payment, why not consider an time/effort payment?
> 
> At present, I cant really talk, I've been busy, and have provided anything back to NetBeans in a while but then I don't have any issues that are negatively effecting me.  If and when I do I will hopefully try to address them, like I have tried to in the past.
> 
> The way I see it, if we could find out what exactly is blocking people from moving to 11.3/12, and then if they can spend even a small amount of time/effort into looking at these we can get to an even better NetBeans product.
> 
> John
> 
>> On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 13:34, Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net> wrote:
>> Agreed, NetBeans is worth paying for....
>> 
>> I am with Bill, I have not upgraded and I am at 9 similar to 8.
>> 
>> Rob
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: bmelendez@hemstech.com [mailto:bmelendez@hemstech.com] 
>> Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 9:30 AM
>> To: Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
>> Cc: Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>; Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>; Netbeans Mailing List <us...@netbeans.apache.org>
>> Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
>> 
>> All:
>> 
>> Been reading all the emails on the NB migration. I do JAVA on NB 8.0.2 platform and have not upgraded due to the issues being address. I do okay with the NB 8. If this is so critical for getting program done for clients, then one should be willing to pay for the platform. See it as a business expense and write it off at tax time. Normally, tools are included in the cost of a job -so I'm miffed as to the expectations placing the onus on NB development to resolve things at no cost. NB is a great platform and this is merely a transitional period for it, so I stay with my current platform and wait until the dust settles --or pay for the upgrade with support if my situation changes. While NB has many issues, it will eventually resolve the main ones or become a dust covered relic with passing memories.
>> 
>> 
>> Bill
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> > Indeed, I think the approach Emilian suggests is the way to go. And, 
>> > indeed, if you don't want to or have the time to move to Maven of 
>> > Gradle, then a lot of modern options start closing off to you.
>> >
>> > But, on a different level, for a lot of users of NetBeans, the 
>> > chickens have come home to roost: a free and open source project, such 
>> > as NetBeans, should never simply have been 'used', it should always 
>> > have been invested in. For example, simply filing a bug and hoping 
>> > someone will turn up to fix it has never been the way open source is 
>> > meant to work.
>> >
>> > Nothing is ever free -- either you spend time (in understanding how 
>> > NetBeans works, for example) or money (in paying JetBrains, for 
>> > example, and then you have engineers creating IntelliJ IDEA for you). 
>> > Not spending anything at all and hoping things will work out for you 
>> > has never been a sustainable approach.
>> >
>> > Gjj
>> >
>> > On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 4:24 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Go and pick Azul Zulu' JDK FX package which comes bundles with JavaFX:
>> >>
>> >> https://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu-community/?&architecture=x86-64-b
>> >> it&package=jdk-fx
>> >>
>> >> I used it for an older Platform app where I don't feel like 
>> >> configuring the FX mumbo jumbo.
>> >>
>> >> I doubt anybody can make a magic transition tools since there's too 
>> >> much people can customize...
>> >>
>> >> Given the resources available, things are as they are. They could 
>> >> always be better.
>> >>
>> >> --emi
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 5:16 PM Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >     I have been a NetBeans user since inception.  I am retired now,
>> >> but
>> >> when I worked, I was one of the few people in my company that was an 
>> >> advocate of NetBeans, and used it instead of the company line, 
>> >> Eclipse product.
>> >> >
>> >> >     Retired now for 10+ years, I used NetBeans to develop my 
>> >> > products,
>> >> and really getting involved in JavaFX big time. I love the cross 
>> >> platform capability, and use it on both Ubuntu and Windows.  
>> >> Raspberry Pi, no problem.  Windows, no problem.  I loved it. Then 
>> >> boom, Oracle takes JavaFX out of the mix, and NetBeans and I start 
>> >> having major problems. It gets harder and harder to use NetBeans with 
>> >> it’s incompatibility with JavaFX without going through hoops every 
>> >> single time we upgrade.  I have a ton of projects that are a major 
>> >> pain to go back to without having to dance on a high wire to get to 
>> >> work.  And I am still not sure I can do this anymore.
>> >> >
>> >> >     I have been a computer programmer, designer and architect for 
>> >> > well
>> >> over 53+ years.  I have see many systems come and go, many IDE rise 
>> >> and fall, many languages surface and crash.  The move to Maven is 
>> >> beyond my scope now.  I want to program, not to have to regenerate 
>> >> and rehash my build system every release.  I have tried to move over 
>> >> to 11, and mostly failed.  I have too many modules and programs in play to hack this out.
>> >> >
>> >> >     It would have been great if NetBeans had a seamless transition 
>> >> > ,
>> >> built in conversions for old projects to current format.  Seriously, 
>> >> I would love to be on that train.  But nope, it seems too much 
>> >> handholding and dancing.  I currently have a half dozen active 
>> >> Beta’s  that are stuck in a NetBeans 8.1.x / Java 8 scenario, that 
>> >> I want to port into NetBeans
>> >> 11.3 / Java 13+ area, but really don’t believe that it is 1: Easy, 2:
>> >> Lasting, 3: Enduring more than another release.
>> >> >
>> >> >     I still have reported bugs > 5 years old that are not resolved.
>> >> >
>> >> >     I see streams of notes that are asking questions about
>> >> compatibility.  ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I see how 
>> >> once the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off is 
>> >> almost impossible.  If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this is a 
>> >> good trend.
>> >> If
>> >> you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more than 
>> >> just an annoyance.  It almost easier to find another IDE to settle in 
>> >> on, as the amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably more, 
>> >> from old NetBeans to new NetBeans is formidable.
>> >> >
>> >> >     Maybe a 3rd party can produce a product that 100% transfer old
>> >> projects to Maven..  I’d rather develop and code than mess around 
>> >> with trying to make things move up the NetBeans chain anymore..  
>> >> Coding is fun, transitioning is not. I am 100% committed to JavaFX, I 
>> >> like the layouts, I like what Gluon has done, I like the look and 
>> >> feel.
>> >> >
>> >> >     NetBeans 8 –> NetBeans 11+ –> convert ...
>> >> >
>> >> >     I would normally apologize for my rant, but nope. I feel that I 
>> >> > am
>> >> now progressing backwards...
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>> >>
>> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> 
>> 
>> Bill Melendez, Founder & CEO, MBA
>> HEMS Technology
>> www.hemstech.com
>> www.linkedin.com/in/billmelendez
>> bmelendez@hemstech.com
>> 817-932-0047
>> 
>> 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>> 
>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>> 
>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>> 

Re: Statement of disappointment

[John Mc <mc...@gmail.com>]

But instead of looking at this financial payment, why not consider an
time/effort payment?

At present, I cant really talk, I've been busy, and have provided anything
back to NetBeans in a while but then I don't have any issues that are
negatively effecting me.  If and when I do I will hopefully try to address
them, like I have tried to in the past.

The way I see it, if we could find out what exactly is blocking people from
moving to 11.3/12, and then if they can spend even a small amount of
time/effort into looking at these we can get to an even better NetBeans
product.

John

On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 13:34, Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net> wrote:

> Agreed, NetBeans is worth paying for....
>
> I am with Bill, I have not upgraded and I am at 9 similar to 8.
>
> Rob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bmelendez@hemstech.com [mailto:bmelendez@hemstech.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 9:30 AM
> To: Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
> Cc: Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>; Paul Szudzik <
> pszudzik@throwarock.com>; Netbeans Mailing List <users@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment
>
> All:
>
> Been reading all the emails on the NB migration. I do JAVA on NB 8.0.2
> platform and have not upgraded due to the issues being address. I do okay
> with the NB 8. If this is so critical for getting program done for clients,
> then one should be willing to pay for the platform. See it as a business
> expense and write it off at tax time. Normally, tools are included in the
> cost of a job -so I'm miffed as to the expectations placing the onus on NB
> development to resolve things at no cost. NB is a great platform and this
> is merely a transitional period for it, so I stay with my current platform
> and wait until the dust settles --or pay for the upgrade with support if my
> situation changes. While NB has many issues, it will eventually resolve the
> main ones or become a dust covered relic with passing memories.
>
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> > Indeed, I think the approach Emilian suggests is the way to go. And,
> > indeed, if you don't want to or have the time to move to Maven of
> > Gradle, then a lot of modern options start closing off to you.
> >
> > But, on a different level, for a lot of users of NetBeans, the
> > chickens have come home to roost: a free and open source project, such
> > as NetBeans, should never simply have been 'used', it should always
> > have been invested in. For example, simply filing a bug and hoping
> > someone will turn up to fix it has never been the way open source is
> > meant to work.
> >
> > Nothing is ever free -- either you spend time (in understanding how
> > NetBeans works, for example) or money (in paying JetBrains, for
> > example, and then you have engineers creating IntelliJ IDEA for you).
> > Not spending anything at all and hoping things will work out for you
> > has never been a sustainable approach.
> >
> > Gjj
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 4:24 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Go and pick Azul Zulu' JDK FX package which comes bundles with JavaFX:
> >>
> >> https://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu-community/?&architecture=x86-64-b
> >> it&package=jdk-fx
> >>
> >> I used it for an older Platform app where I don't feel like
> >> configuring the FX mumbo jumbo.
> >>
> >> I doubt anybody can make a magic transition tools since there's too
> >> much people can customize...
> >>
> >> Given the resources available, things are as they are. They could
> >> always be better.
> >>
> >> --emi
> >>
> >> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 5:16 PM Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >     I have been a NetBeans user since inception.  I am retired now,
> >> but
> >> when I worked, I was one of the few people in my company that was an
> >> advocate of NetBeans, and used it instead of the company line,
> >> Eclipse product.
> >> >
> >> >     Retired now for 10+ years, I used NetBeans to develop my
> >> > products,
> >> and really getting involved in JavaFX big time. I love the cross
> >> platform capability, and use it on both Ubuntu and Windows.
> >> Raspberry Pi, no problem.  Windows, no problem.  I loved it. Then
> >> boom, Oracle takes JavaFX out of the mix, and NetBeans and I start
> >> having major problems. It gets harder and harder to use NetBeans with
> >> it’s incompatibility with JavaFX without going through hoops every
> >> single time we upgrade.  I have a ton of projects that are a major
> >> pain to go back to without having to dance on a high wire to get to
> >> work.  And I am still not sure I can do this anymore.
> >> >
> >> >     I have been a computer programmer, designer and architect for
> >> > well
> >> over 53+ years.  I have see many systems come and go, many IDE rise
> >> and fall, many languages surface and crash.  The move to Maven is
> >> beyond my scope now.  I want to program, not to have to regenerate
> >> and rehash my build system every release.  I have tried to move over
> >> to 11, and mostly failed.  I have too many modules and programs in play
> to hack this out.
> >> >
> >> >     It would have been great if NetBeans had a seamless transition
> >> > ,
> >> built in conversions for old projects to current format.  Seriously,
> >> I would love to be on that train.  But nope, it seems too much
> >> handholding and dancing.  I currently have a half dozen active
> >> Beta’s  that are stuck in a NetBeans 8.1.x / Java 8 scenario, that
> >> I want to port into NetBeans
> >> 11.3 / Java 13+ area, but really don’t believe that it is 1: Easy, 2:
> >> Lasting, 3: Enduring more than another release.
> >> >
> >> >     I still have reported bugs > 5 years old that are not resolved.
> >> >
> >> >     I see streams of notes that are asking questions about
> >> compatibility.  ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I see how
> >> once the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off is
> >> almost impossible.  If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this is a
> >> good trend.
> >> If
> >> you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more than
> >> just an annoyance.  It almost easier to find another IDE to settle in
> >> on, as the amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably more,
> >> from old NetBeans to new NetBeans is formidable.
> >> >
> >> >     Maybe a 3rd party can produce a product that 100% transfer old
> >> projects to Maven..  I’d rather develop and code than mess around
> >> with trying to make things move up the NetBeans chain anymore..
> >> Coding is fun, transitioning is not. I am 100% committed to JavaFX, I
> >> like the layouts, I like what Gluon has done, I like the look and
> >> feel.
> >> >
> >> >     NetBeans 8 –> NetBeans 11+ –> convert ...
> >> >
> >> >     I would normally apologize for my rant, but nope. I feel that I
> >> > am
> >> now progressing backwards...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >>
> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
> Bill Melendez, Founder & CEO, MBA
> HEMS Technology
> www.hemstech.com
> www.linkedin.com/in/billmelendez
> bmelendez@hemstech.com
> 817-932-0047
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>

RE: Statement of disappointment

[Robert Erdt <ro...@charter.net>]

Agreed, NetBeans is worth paying for....

I am with Bill, I have not upgraded and I am at 9 similar to 8.

Rob

-----Original Message-----
From: bmelendez@hemstech.com [mailto:bmelendez@hemstech.com] 
Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 9:30 AM
To: Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>
Cc: Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>; Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>; Netbeans Mailing List <us...@netbeans.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Statement of disappointment

All:

Been reading all the emails on the NB migration. I do JAVA on NB 8.0.2 platform and have not upgraded due to the issues being address. I do okay with the NB 8. If this is so critical for getting program done for clients, then one should be willing to pay for the platform. See it as a business expense and write it off at tax time. Normally, tools are included in the cost of a job -so I'm miffed as to the expectations placing the onus on NB development to resolve things at no cost. NB is a great platform and this is merely a transitional period for it, so I stay with my current platform and wait until the dust settles --or pay for the upgrade with support if my situation changes. While NB has many issues, it will eventually resolve the main ones or become a dust covered relic with passing memories.


Bill



> Indeed, I think the approach Emilian suggests is the way to go. And, 
> indeed, if you don't want to or have the time to move to Maven of 
> Gradle, then a lot of modern options start closing off to you.
>
> But, on a different level, for a lot of users of NetBeans, the 
> chickens have come home to roost: a free and open source project, such 
> as NetBeans, should never simply have been 'used', it should always 
> have been invested in. For example, simply filing a bug and hoping 
> someone will turn up to fix it has never been the way open source is 
> meant to work.
>
> Nothing is ever free -- either you spend time (in understanding how 
> NetBeans works, for example) or money (in paying JetBrains, for 
> example, and then you have engineers creating IntelliJ IDEA for you). 
> Not spending anything at all and hoping things will work out for you 
> has never been a sustainable approach.
>
> Gjj
>
> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 4:24 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Go and pick Azul Zulu' JDK FX package which comes bundles with JavaFX:
>>
>> https://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu-community/?&architecture=x86-64-b
>> it&package=jdk-fx
>>
>> I used it for an older Platform app where I don't feel like 
>> configuring the FX mumbo jumbo.
>>
>> I doubt anybody can make a magic transition tools since there's too 
>> much people can customize...
>>
>> Given the resources available, things are as they are. They could 
>> always be better.
>>
>> --emi
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 5:16 PM Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >     I have been a NetBeans user since inception.  I am retired now,
>> but
>> when I worked, I was one of the few people in my company that was an 
>> advocate of NetBeans, and used it instead of the company line, 
>> Eclipse product.
>> >
>> >     Retired now for 10+ years, I used NetBeans to develop my 
>> > products,
>> and really getting involved in JavaFX big time. I love the cross 
>> platform capability, and use it on both Ubuntu and Windows.  
>> Raspberry Pi, no problem.  Windows, no problem.  I loved it. Then 
>> boom, Oracle takes JavaFX out of the mix, and NetBeans and I start 
>> having major problems. It gets harder and harder to use NetBeans with 
>> it’s incompatibility with JavaFX without going through hoops every 
>> single time we upgrade.  I have a ton of projects that are a major 
>> pain to go back to without having to dance on a high wire to get to 
>> work.  And I am still not sure I can do this anymore.
>> >
>> >     I have been a computer programmer, designer and architect for 
>> > well
>> over 53+ years.  I have see many systems come and go, many IDE rise 
>> and fall, many languages surface and crash.  The move to Maven is 
>> beyond my scope now.  I want to program, not to have to regenerate 
>> and rehash my build system every release.  I have tried to move over 
>> to 11, and mostly failed.  I have too many modules and programs in play to hack this out.
>> >
>> >     It would have been great if NetBeans had a seamless transition 
>> > ,
>> built in conversions for old projects to current format.  Seriously, 
>> I would love to be on that train.  But nope, it seems too much 
>> handholding and dancing.  I currently have a half dozen active 
>> Beta’s  that are stuck in a NetBeans 8.1.x / Java 8 scenario, that 
>> I want to port into NetBeans
>> 11.3 / Java 13+ area, but really don’t believe that it is 1: Easy, 2:
>> Lasting, 3: Enduring more than another release.
>> >
>> >     I still have reported bugs > 5 years old that are not resolved.
>> >
>> >     I see streams of notes that are asking questions about
>> compatibility.  ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I see how 
>> once the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off is 
>> almost impossible.  If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this is a 
>> good trend.
>> If
>> you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more than 
>> just an annoyance.  It almost easier to find another IDE to settle in 
>> on, as the amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably more, 
>> from old NetBeans to new NetBeans is formidable.
>> >
>> >     Maybe a 3rd party can produce a product that 100% transfer old
>> projects to Maven..  I’d rather develop and code than mess around 
>> with trying to make things move up the NetBeans chain anymore..  
>> Coding is fun, transitioning is not. I am 100% committed to JavaFX, I 
>> like the layouts, I like what Gluon has done, I like the look and 
>> feel.
>> >
>> >     NetBeans 8 –> NetBeans 11+ –> convert ...
>> >
>> >     I would normally apologize for my rant, but nope. I feel that I 
>> > am
>> now progressing backwards...
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>>
>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>
>>
>


Bill Melendez, Founder & CEO, MBA
HEMS Technology
www.hemstech.com
www.linkedin.com/in/billmelendez
bmelendez@hemstech.com
817-932-0047


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org

For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists



---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org

For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists

Re: Statement of disappointment

[bm...@hemstech.com]

All:

Been reading all the emails on the NB migration. I do JAVA on NB 8.0.2
platform and have not upgraded due to the issues being address. I do okay
with the NB 8. If this is so critical for getting program done for
clients, then one should be willing to pay for the platform. See it as a
business expense and write it off at tax time. Normally, tools are
included in the cost of a job -so I'm miffed as to the expectations
placing the onus on NB development to resolve things at no cost. NB is a
great platform and this is merely a transitional period for it, so I stay
with my current platform and wait until the dust settles --or pay for the
upgrade with support if my situation changes. While NB has many issues, it
will eventually resolve the main ones or become a dust covered relic with
passing memories.


Bill



> Indeed, I think the approach Emilian suggests is the way to go. And,
> indeed, if you don't want to or have the time to move to Maven of Gradle,
> then a lot of modern options start closing off to you.
>
> But, on a different level, for a lot of users of NetBeans, the chickens
> have come home to roost: a free and open source project, such as NetBeans,
> should never simply have been 'used', it should always have been invested
> in. For example, simply filing a bug and hoping someone will turn up to
> fix
> it has never been the way open source is meant to work.
>
> Nothing is ever free -- either you spend time (in understanding how
> NetBeans works, for example) or money (in paying JetBrains, for example,
> and then you have engineers creating IntelliJ IDEA for you). Not spending
> anything at all and hoping things will work out for you has never been a
> sustainable approach.
>
> Gjj
>
> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 4:24 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Go and pick Azul Zulu' JDK FX package which comes bundles with JavaFX:
>>
>> https://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu-community/?&architecture=x86-64-bit&package=jdk-fx
>>
>> I used it for an older Platform app where I don't feel like
>> configuring the FX mumbo jumbo.
>>
>> I doubt anybody can make a magic transition tools since there's too
>> much people can customize...
>>
>> Given the resources available, things are as they are. They could
>> always be better.
>>
>> --emi
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 5:16 PM Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >     I have been a NetBeans user since inception.  I am retired now,
>> but
>> when I worked, I was one of the few people in my company that was an
>> advocate of NetBeans, and used it instead of the company line, Eclipse
>> product.
>> >
>> >     Retired now for 10+ years, I used NetBeans to develop my products,
>> and really getting involved in JavaFX big time. I love the cross
>> platform
>> capability, and use it on both Ubuntu and Windows.  Raspberry Pi, no
>> problem.  Windows, no problem.  I loved it. Then boom, Oracle takes
>> JavaFX
>> out of the mix, and NetBeans and I start having major problems. It gets
>> harder and harder to use NetBeans with it’s incompatibility with
>> JavaFX
>> without going through hoops every single time we upgrade.  I have a ton
>> of
>> projects that are a major pain to go back to without having to dance on
>> a
>> high wire to get to work.  And I am still not sure I can do this
>> anymore.
>> >
>> >     I have been a computer programmer, designer and architect for well
>> over 53+ years.  I have see many systems come and go, many IDE rise and
>> fall, many languages surface and crash.  The move to Maven is beyond my
>> scope now.  I want to program, not to have to regenerate and rehash my
>> build system every release.  I have tried to move over to 11, and mostly
>> failed.  I have too many modules and programs in play to hack this out.
>> >
>> >     It would have been great if NetBeans had a seamless transition ,
>> built in conversions for old projects to current format.  Seriously, I
>> would love to be on that train.  But nope, it seems too much handholding
>> and dancing.  I currently have a half dozen active Beta’s  that are
>> stuck
>> in a NetBeans 8.1.x / Java 8 scenario, that I want to port into NetBeans
>> 11.3 / Java 13+ area, but really don’t believe that it is 1: Easy, 2:
>> Lasting, 3: Enduring more than another release.
>> >
>> >     I still have reported bugs > 5 years old that are not resolved.
>> >
>> >     I see streams of notes that are asking questions about
>> compatibility.  ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I see how
>> once
>> the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off is almost
>> impossible.  If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this is a good trend.
>> If
>> you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more than
>> just
>> an annoyance.  It almost easier to find another IDE to settle in on, as
>> the
>> amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably more, from old
>> NetBeans
>> to new NetBeans is formidable.
>> >
>> >     Maybe a 3rd party can produce a product that 100% transfer old
>> projects to Maven..  I’d rather develop and code than mess around with
>> trying to make things move up the NetBeans chain anymore..  Coding is
>> fun,
>> transitioning is not. I am 100% committed to JavaFX, I like the layouts,
>> I
>> like what Gluon has done, I like the look and feel.
>> >
>> >     NetBeans 8 –> NetBeans 11+ –> convert ...
>> >
>> >     I would normally apologize for my rant, but nope. I feel that I am
>> now progressing backwards...
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>>
>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>
>>
>


Bill Melendez, Founder & CEO, MBA
HEMS Technology
www.hemstech.com
www.linkedin.com/in/billmelendez
bmelendez@hemstech.com
817-932-0047


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org

For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>]

Indeed, I think the approach Emilian suggests is the way to go. And,
indeed, if you don't want to or have the time to move to Maven of Gradle,
then a lot of modern options start closing off to you.

But, on a different level, for a lot of users of NetBeans, the chickens
have come home to roost: a free and open source project, such as NetBeans,
should never simply have been 'used', it should always have been invested
in. For example, simply filing a bug and hoping someone will turn up to fix
it has never been the way open source is meant to work.

Nothing is ever free -- either you spend time (in understanding how
NetBeans works, for example) or money (in paying JetBrains, for example,
and then you have engineers creating IntelliJ IDEA for you). Not spending
anything at all and hoping things will work out for you has never been a
sustainable approach.

Gjj

On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 4:24 PM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Go and pick Azul Zulu' JDK FX package which comes bundles with JavaFX:
>
> https://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu-community/?&architecture=x86-64-bit&package=jdk-fx
>
> I used it for an older Platform app where I don't feel like
> configuring the FX mumbo jumbo.
>
> I doubt anybody can make a magic transition tools since there's too
> much people can customize...
>
> Given the resources available, things are as they are. They could
> always be better.
>
> --emi
>
> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 5:16 PM Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >     I have been a NetBeans user since inception.  I am retired now, but
> when I worked, I was one of the few people in my company that was an
> advocate of NetBeans, and used it instead of the company line, Eclipse
> product.
> >
> >     Retired now for 10+ years, I used NetBeans to develop my products,
> and really getting involved in JavaFX big time. I love the cross platform
> capability, and use it on both Ubuntu and Windows.  Raspberry Pi, no
> problem.  Windows, no problem.  I loved it. Then boom, Oracle takes JavaFX
> out of the mix, and NetBeans and I start having major problems. It gets
> harder and harder to use NetBeans with it’s incompatibility with JavaFX
> without going through hoops every single time we upgrade.  I have a ton of
> projects that are a major pain to go back to without having to dance on a
> high wire to get to work.  And I am still not sure I can do this anymore.
> >
> >     I have been a computer programmer, designer and architect for well
> over 53+ years.  I have see many systems come and go, many IDE rise and
> fall, many languages surface and crash.  The move to Maven is beyond my
> scope now.  I want to program, not to have to regenerate and rehash my
> build system every release.  I have tried to move over to 11, and mostly
> failed.  I have too many modules and programs in play to hack this out.
> >
> >     It would have been great if NetBeans had a seamless transition ,
> built in conversions for old projects to current format.  Seriously, I
> would love to be on that train.  But nope, it seems too much handholding
> and dancing.  I currently have a half dozen active Beta’s  that are stuck
> in a NetBeans 8.1.x / Java 8 scenario, that I want to port into NetBeans
> 11.3 / Java 13+ area, but really don’t believe that it is 1: Easy, 2:
> Lasting, 3: Enduring more than another release.
> >
> >     I still have reported bugs > 5 years old that are not resolved.
> >
> >     I see streams of notes that are asking questions about
> compatibility.  ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I see how once
> the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off is almost
> impossible.  If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this is a good trend.  If
> you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more than just
> an annoyance.  It almost easier to find another IDE to settle in on, as the
> amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably more, from old NetBeans
> to new NetBeans is formidable.
> >
> >     Maybe a 3rd party can produce a product that 100% transfer old
> projects to Maven..  I’d rather develop and code than mess around with
> trying to make things move up the NetBeans chain anymore..  Coding is fun,
> transitioning is not. I am 100% committed to JavaFX, I like the layouts, I
> like what Gluon has done, I like the look and feel.
> >
> >     NetBeans 8 –> NetBeans 11+ –> convert ...
> >
> >     I would normally apologize for my rant, but nope. I feel that I am
> now progressing backwards...
> >
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

Go and pick Azul Zulu' JDK FX package which comes bundles with JavaFX:
https://www.azul.com/downloads/zulu-community/?&architecture=x86-64-bit&package=jdk-fx

I used it for an older Platform app where I don't feel like
configuring the FX mumbo jumbo.

I doubt anybody can make a magic transition tools since there's too
much people can customize...

Given the resources available, things are as they are. They could
always be better.

--emi

On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 5:16 PM Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com> wrote:
>
>     I have been a NetBeans user since inception.  I am retired now, but when I worked, I was one of the few people in my company that was an advocate of NetBeans, and used it instead of the company line, Eclipse product.
>
>     Retired now for 10+ years, I used NetBeans to develop my products, and really getting involved in JavaFX big time. I love the cross platform capability, and use it on both Ubuntu and Windows.  Raspberry Pi, no problem.  Windows, no problem.  I loved it. Then boom, Oracle takes JavaFX out of the mix, and NetBeans and I start having major problems. It gets harder and harder to use NetBeans with it’s incompatibility with JavaFX without going through hoops every single time we upgrade.  I have a ton of projects that are a major pain to go back to without having to dance on a high wire to get to work.  And I am still not sure I can do this anymore.
>
>     I have been a computer programmer, designer and architect for well over 53+ years.  I have see many systems come and go, many IDE rise and fall, many languages surface and crash.  The move to Maven is beyond my scope now.  I want to program, not to have to regenerate and rehash my build system every release.  I have tried to move over to 11, and mostly failed.  I have too many modules and programs in play to hack this out.
>
>     It would have been great if NetBeans had a seamless transition , built in conversions for old projects to current format.  Seriously, I would love to be on that train.  But nope, it seems too much handholding and dancing.  I currently have a half dozen active Beta’s  that are stuck in a NetBeans 8.1.x / Java 8 scenario, that I want to port into NetBeans 11.3 / Java 13+ area, but really don’t believe that it is 1: Easy, 2: Lasting, 3: Enduring more than another release.
>
>     I still have reported bugs > 5 years old that are not resolved.
>
>     I see streams of notes that are asking questions about compatibility.  ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I see how once the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off is almost impossible.  If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this is a good trend.  If you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more than just an annoyance.  It almost easier to find another IDE to settle in on, as the amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably more, from old NetBeans to new NetBeans is formidable.
>
>     Maybe a 3rd party can produce a product that 100% transfer old projects to Maven..  I’d rather develop and code than mess around with trying to make things move up the NetBeans chain anymore..  Coding is fun, transitioning is not. I am 100% committed to JavaFX, I like the layouts, I like what Gluon has done, I like the look and feel.
>
>     NetBeans 8 –> NetBeans 11+ –> convert ...
>
>     I would normally apologize for my rant, but nope. I feel that I am now progressing backwards...
>
>
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org

For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Don <do...@gmail.com>]

I agree.  I have been using NetBeans since it was called Forte and both 
it and Java were owned and managed by Sun.  I think I was up to version 
8.2 when management switched to Apache and a LOT of things changed.  At 
the same time, almost all of the Swing apps I had produced with earlier 
versions were made obsolete by a switch from in-house to vendor-provided 
web site and cloud-hosted database with a different structure.  A 
different change obsoleted the collection of integration utilities I had 
been keeping going.

Now I am learning Groovy and AngularJS and Netbeans 11 and there are a 
lot of challenges but since I really can't multitask effectively, I try 
to work on one thing at a time.

Don

On 3/9/20 2:08 PM, Neil C Smith wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Mar 2020 at 15:16, Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com> wrote:
>>      I see streams of notes that are asking questions about compatibility.  ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I see how once the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off is almost impossible.  If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this is a good trend.  If you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more than just an annoyance.  It almost easier to find another IDE to settle in on, as the amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably more, from old NetBeans to new NetBeans is formidable.
> Personally, I think you're putting the "blame" firmly in the wrong
> place.  Java is changing, JavaFX is changing, build tools are evolving
> - this is all for the better in my opinion, but it requires learning
> new things.  And switching IDE will not change that, and will probably
> make for even more annoyance.
>
> As Emi has already mentioned, there are numerous ways of working the
> old way, with a Java 8 JDK, possibly even with JavaFX bundled, for a
> number of years yet (although that's maybe not much use if you like
> what Gluon is doing).  None of the support for the older ways of
> working have been removed from the IDE as far as I know.
>
> To paraphrase your domain, maybe throw the rock elsewhere?! :-)
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org

For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Zahid Rahman <za...@gmail.com>]

https://www.javacodegeeks.com/2020/03/new-features-between-java-8-and-java-14.html

On Mon, 9 Mar 2020, 19:43 Ty Young, <yo...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On 3/9/20 1:08 PM, Neil C Smith wrote:
> > On Mon, 9 Mar 2020 at 15:16, Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>
> wrote:
> >>      I see streams of notes that are asking questions about
> compatibility.  ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I see how once
> the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off is almost
> impossible.  If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this is a good trend.  If
> you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more than just
> an annoyance.  It almost easier to find another IDE to settle in on, as the
> amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably more, from old NetBeans
> to new NetBeans is formidable.
> > Personally, I think you're putting the "blame" firmly in the wrong
> > place.  Java is changing, JavaFX is changing, build tools are evolving
> > - this is all for the better in my opinion, but it requires learning
> > new things.  And switching IDE will not change that, and will probably
> > make for even more annoyance.
>
>
> Right. It isn't Netbeans fault, nor any other IDEs at this point.
>
>
> Oracle, not Netbeans(who was previously the developers of Netbeans), are
> to blame for the removal of JavaFX. Oracle decided they wanted to
> downsize the JDK, breaking backwards compatibility in the process.
>
>
> (Oracle/JDK developers will argue JavaFX was never apart of the JDK but
> this is just technical nonsense. Oracle JDK was *THE* JDK before Java 11)
>
>
> Netbeans supports JavaFX just fine. You just include the libs like any
> other library.
>
>
> >
> > As Emi has already mentioned, there are numerous ways of working the
> > old way, with a Java 8 JDK, possibly even with JavaFX bundled, for a
> > number of years yet (although that's maybe not much use if you like
> > what Gluon is doing).  None of the support for the older ways of
> > working have been removed from the IDE as far as I know.
>
>
> You should be able to create a JDK build with JavaFX bundles, yes. It
> worked with JDK 11 at least. This won't help you running on other
> JDK/JRE installs though since those won't have it.
>
>
> It is also possible to use Java 11's single source code runner to create
> a launcher that specifies JavaFX's modules and load them from a
> directory shipped with the application if you want.
>
>
> >
> > To paraphrase your domain, maybe throw the rock elsewhere?! :-)
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Neil
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Ty Young <yo...@gmail.com>]

On 3/9/20 1:08 PM, Neil C Smith wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Mar 2020 at 15:16, Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com> wrote:
>>      I see streams of notes that are asking questions about compatibility.  ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I see how once the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off is almost impossible.  If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this is a good trend.  If you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more than just an annoyance.  It almost easier to find another IDE to settle in on, as the amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably more, from old NetBeans to new NetBeans is formidable.
> Personally, I think you're putting the "blame" firmly in the wrong
> place.  Java is changing, JavaFX is changing, build tools are evolving
> - this is all for the better in my opinion, but it requires learning
> new things.  And switching IDE will not change that, and will probably
> make for even more annoyance.


Right. It isn't Netbeans fault, nor any other IDEs at this point.


Oracle, not Netbeans(who was previously the developers of Netbeans), are 
to blame for the removal of JavaFX. Oracle decided they wanted to 
downsize the JDK, breaking backwards compatibility in the process.


(Oracle/JDK developers will argue JavaFX was never apart of the JDK but 
this is just technical nonsense. Oracle JDK was *THE* JDK before Java 11)


Netbeans supports JavaFX just fine. You just include the libs like any 
other library.


>
> As Emi has already mentioned, there are numerous ways of working the
> old way, with a Java 8 JDK, possibly even with JavaFX bundled, for a
> number of years yet (although that's maybe not much use if you like
> what Gluon is doing).  None of the support for the older ways of
> working have been removed from the IDE as far as I know.


You should be able to create a JDK build with JavaFX bundles, yes. It 
worked with JDK 11 at least. This won't help you running on other 
JDK/JRE installs though since those won't have it.


It is also possible to use Java 11's single source code runner to create 
a launcher that specifies JavaFX's modules and load them from a 
directory shipped with the application if you want.


>
> To paraphrase your domain, maybe throw the rock elsewhere?! :-)
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org

For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>]

On Mon, 9 Mar 2020 at 15:16, Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com> wrote:
>     I see streams of notes that are asking questions about compatibility.  ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I see how once the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off is almost impossible.  If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this is a good trend.  If you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more than just an annoyance.  It almost easier to find another IDE to settle in on, as the amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably more, from old NetBeans to new NetBeans is formidable.

Personally, I think you're putting the "blame" firmly in the wrong
place.  Java is changing, JavaFX is changing, build tools are evolving
- this is all for the better in my opinion, but it requires learning
new things.  And switching IDE will not change that, and will probably
make for even more annoyance.

As Emi has already mentioned, there are numerous ways of working the
old way, with a Java 8 JDK, possibly even with JavaFX bundled, for a
number of years yet (although that's maybe not much use if you like
what Gluon is doing).  None of the support for the older ways of
working have been removed from the IDE as far as I know.

To paraphrase your domain, maybe throw the rock elsewhere?! :-)

Best wishes,

Neil

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org

For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Alonso Del Arte <al...@gmail.com>]

For what it's worth, I've had problems switching from 8 to 11, too. But
they've been minor glitches. But I barely know JavaFX and I don't use it at
all, I've been quite satisfied with AWT/Swing for my purposes. I've used
Eclipse and found it lacking. IntelliJ's good, but I don't need an IDE to
auto-complete "try" or "val" for me. I've found parameter auto-complete in
NetBeans to be generally much more helpful.

Also, I should note that I never did delete NetBeans 8.2 from my MacBook,
even though I almost never used it after upgrading to 11.1. I figured other
people were sure to have problems in the transition, and I think my luck is
such that I too would have had problems if I had deleted 8.2.

Al

On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 12:13 PM Chuck Davis <cj...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Paul, many of us "feel your pain" with what Oracle did to JavaFX.  But all
> is not lost.  Take a look here:  http://netbeans.apache.org/kb/docs/java/
>
> Scroll down to the JavaFX section and click on the first item.  You will
> see how completely easy it is to develop JavaFX with Netbeans and Maven.
> Of course, deployment is a different story but Gluon has some good
> information about how to install JavaFX.  Once installed, it's installed --
> until you want to upgrade to the next release and then it is also quite
> simple.  The main difference is defining the module path.
>
> It's a terrible shame all the big players have decided a browser is a
> "good enough" interface for users.  For those of us old enough to remember
> how efficient a character interface was to get work done a browser will
> just never be adequate.  But, as you know, we can get pretty close to that
> efficiency with either Swing or JavaFX.
>
> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 8:16 AM Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>
> wrote:
>
>>     I have been a NetBeans user since inception.  I am retired now, but
>> when I worked, I was one of the few people in my company that was an
>> advocate of NetBeans, and used it instead of the company line, Eclipse
>> product.
>>
>>     Retired now for 10+ years, I used NetBeans to develop my products,
>> and really getting involved in JavaFX big time. I love the cross platform
>> capability, and use it on both Ubuntu and Windows.  Raspberry Pi, no
>> problem.  Windows, no problem.  I loved it. Then boom, Oracle takes JavaFX
>> out of the mix, and NetBeans and I start having major problems. It gets
>> harder and harder to use NetBeans with it’s incompatibility with JavaFX
>> without going through hoops every single time we upgrade.  I have a ton of
>> projects that are a major pain to go back to without having to dance on a
>> high wire to get to work.  And I am still not sure I can do this anymore.
>>
>>     I have been a computer programmer, designer and architect for well
>> over 53+ years.  I have see many systems come and go, many IDE rise and
>> fall, many languages surface and crash.  The move to Maven is beyond my
>> scope now.  I want to program, not to have to regenerate and rehash my
>> build system every release.  I have tried to move over to 11, and mostly
>> failed.  I have too many modules and programs in play to hack this out.
>>
>>     It would have been great if NetBeans had a seamless transition ,
>> built in conversions for old projects to current format.  Seriously, I
>> would love to be on that train.  But nope, it seems too much handholding
>> and dancing.  I currently have a half dozen active Beta’s  that are stuck
>> in a NetBeans 8.1.x / Java 8 scenario, that I want to port into NetBeans
>> 11.3 / Java 13+ area, but really don’t believe that it is 1: Easy, 2:
>> Lasting, 3: Enduring more than another release.
>>
>>     I still have reported bugs > 5 years old that are not resolved.
>>
>>     I see streams of notes that are asking questions about
>> compatibility.  ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I see how once
>> the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off is almost
>> impossible.  If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this is a good trend.  If
>> you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more than just
>> an annoyance.  It almost easier to find another IDE to settle in on, as the
>> amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably more, from old NetBeans
>> to new NetBeans is formidable.
>>
>>     Maybe a 3rd party can produce a product that 100% transfer old
>> projects to Maven..  I’d rather develop and code than mess around with
>> trying to make things move up the NetBeans chain anymore..  Coding is fun,
>> transitioning is not. I am 100% committed to JavaFX, I like the layouts, I
>> like what Gluon has done, I like the look and feel.
>>
>>     NetBeans 8 –> NetBeans 11+ –> convert ...
>>
>>     I would normally apologize for my rant, but nope. I feel that I am
>> now progressing backwards...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

-- 
Alonso del Arte
Author at SmashWords.com
<https://www.smashwords.com/profile/view/AlonsoDelarte>
Musician at ReverbNation.com <http://www.reverbnation.com/alonsodelarte>

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Chuck Davis <cj...@gmail.com>]

Paul, many of us "feel your pain" with what Oracle did to JavaFX.  But all
is not lost.  Take a look here:  http://netbeans.apache.org/kb/docs/java/

Scroll down to the JavaFX section and click on the first item.  You will
see how completely easy it is to develop JavaFX with Netbeans and Maven.
Of course, deployment is a different story but Gluon has some good
information about how to install JavaFX.  Once installed, it's installed --
until you want to upgrade to the next release and then it is also quite
simple.  The main difference is defining the module path.

It's a terrible shame all the big players have decided a browser is a "good
enough" interface for users.  For those of us old enough to remember how
efficient a character interface was to get work done a browser will just
never be adequate.  But, as you know, we can get pretty close to that
efficiency with either Swing or JavaFX.

On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 8:16 AM Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com> wrote:

>     I have been a NetBeans user since inception.  I am retired now, but
> when I worked, I was one of the few people in my company that was an
> advocate of NetBeans, and used it instead of the company line, Eclipse
> product.
>
>     Retired now for 10+ years, I used NetBeans to develop my products, and
> really getting involved in JavaFX big time. I love the cross platform
> capability, and use it on both Ubuntu and Windows.  Raspberry Pi, no
> problem.  Windows, no problem.  I loved it. Then boom, Oracle takes JavaFX
> out of the mix, and NetBeans and I start having major problems. It gets
> harder and harder to use NetBeans with it’s incompatibility with JavaFX
> without going through hoops every single time we upgrade.  I have a ton of
> projects that are a major pain to go back to without having to dance on a
> high wire to get to work.  And I am still not sure I can do this anymore.
>
>     I have been a computer programmer, designer and architect for well
> over 53+ years.  I have see many systems come and go, many IDE rise and
> fall, many languages surface and crash.  The move to Maven is beyond my
> scope now.  I want to program, not to have to regenerate and rehash my
> build system every release.  I have tried to move over to 11, and mostly
> failed.  I have too many modules and programs in play to hack this out.
>
>     It would have been great if NetBeans had a seamless transition , built
> in conversions for old projects to current format.  Seriously, I would love
> to be on that train.  But nope, it seems too much handholding and dancing.
> I currently have a half dozen active Beta’s  that are stuck in a NetBeans
> 8.1.x / Java 8 scenario, that I want to port into NetBeans 11.3 / Java 13+
> area, but really don’t believe that it is 1: Easy, 2: Lasting, 3: Enduring
> more than another release.
>
>     I still have reported bugs > 5 years old that are not resolved.
>
>     I see streams of notes that are asking questions about compatibility.
> ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I see how once the major players
> in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off is almost impossible.  If you’re
> new to NetBeans, perhaps this is a good trend.  If you have dealt with
> NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more than just an annoyance.  It
> almost easier to find another IDE to settle in on, as the amount of work to
> transfer 100+ projects, probably more, from old NetBeans to new NetBeans is
> formidable.
>
>     Maybe a 3rd party can produce a product that 100% transfer old
> projects to Maven..  I’d rather develop and code than mess around with
> trying to make things move up the NetBeans chain anymore..  Coding is fun,
> transitioning is not. I am 100% committed to JavaFX, I like the layouts, I
> like what Gluon has done, I like the look and feel.
>
>     NetBeans 8 –> NetBeans 11+ –> convert ...
>
>     I would normally apologize for my rant, but nope. I feel that I am now
> progressing backwards...
>
>
>
>

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>]

We'd be happy to help.

Maybe one way would be to work on the code together, i.e., if you
have/create an account (assuming you don't have one yet) on GitHub (
https://github.com/) and then put your whole application there, others (me
for sure) will be happy to take a look at it.

Gj

On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 6:58 PM Judi Rastall <ju...@rastall.com> wrote:

> Maybe I'm trying to run before I can walk but I have set myself the target
> of rewriting a program I've inherited in Delphi into Java because I want to
> offer the program to run on any platform. So far I have written a splash
> screen with two buttons - Go and Quit. This then loads a menu bar which has
> a number of buttons which then call various functions or routines. So far I
> have two buttons active which load either  table or a screen of help text.
> Everything works perfectly within the IDE when I "Run" the program from
> there. However, when I "Clean & Build", the resulting jar file won't run.
>
> Trying to run from the CMD prompt, I see this error message:
> Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NullPointerException
>         at javax.swing.ImageIcon.<init>(Unknown Source)
>         at wagonflow5.StartScreen.initComponents(StartScreen.java:70)
>         at wagonflow5.StartScreen.<init>(StartScreen.java:25)
>         at wagonflow5.WagonFlow5.main(WagonFlow5.java:30)
>
> I am running Apache Netbeans 11.3 on Windows 10. Java - version gives:
> java version "1.8.0_241"
> Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.8.0_241-b07)
> Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build 25.241-b07, mixed mode, sharing)
>
> Why will a program that runs perfectly well within the IDE fail to run
> when compiles?
>
> Judi
>
> On 09/03/2020 16:09, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
>
> Give us some idea of what the problems are, and maybe we can help?
>
> Gj
>
> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 5:07 PM Judi Rastall <ju...@rastall.com> wrote:
>
>> I have to admit I'm on the point of giving up with Netbeans 11. Programs
>> that used to compile quite happily with V8 no longer compile. I am using
>> images in a subdirectory and the V11 compiler cannot find them so I get
>> null exceptions and it sulks.
>>
>> Judi
>>
>> On 09/03/2020 15:52, Chris Olsen wrote:
>>
>> Paul (and All) --
>>
>>    As they say, "I feel your pain!"   The removal of FX was a pain in the behind for me also, and I am also moving over to Maven from Ant.   I am a complete amateur (though experienced, Java is about my 5th language.)   Much of the more technical discussions among Java developers go way over my head.
>>
>>    HOWEVER, I have been able to move easily from before to now.  My programs are almost exclusively statistical, and not really pushing the limits of Java, which situation may not apply to many.   I found the transition from 8  to Java 13 (AdoptOpenJDK) to be unexpectedly painless and the transition to Maven relatively easy (for the most part just copying over packages and trying to figure out where to put resources.)
>>
>>    And I am anticipating 14 soon.
>>
>>    -- Chris
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com> <ps...@throwarock.com>
>> To: Netbeans Mailing List <us...@netbeans.apache.org> <us...@netbeans.apache.org>
>> Sent: Mon, 09 Mar 2020 11:15:49 -0400 (EDT)
>> Subject: Statement of disappointment
>>
>>     I have been a NetBeans user since inception.  I am retired now, but when I worked, I was one of the few people in my company that was an advocate of NetBeans, and used it instead of the company line, Eclipse product.
>>
>>     Retired now for 10+ years, I used NetBeans to develop my products, and really getting involved in JavaFX big time. I love the cross platform capability, and use it on both Ubuntu and Windows.  Raspberry Pi, no problem.  Windows, no problem.  I loved it. Then boom, Oracle takes JavaFX out of the mix, and NetBeans and I start having major problems. It gets harder and harder to use NetBeans with it’s incompatibility with JavaFX without going through hoops every single time we upgrade.  I have a ton of projects that are a major pain to go back to without having to dance on a high wire to get to work.  And I am still not sure I can do this anymore.
>>
>>     I have been a computer programmer, designer and architect for well over 53+ years.  I have see many systems come and go, many IDE rise and fall, many languages surface and crash.  The move to Maven is beyond my scope now.  I want to program, not to have to regenerate and rehash my build system every release.  I have tried to move over to 11, and mostly failed.  I have too many modules and programs in play to hack this out.
>>
>>     It would have been great if NetBeans had a seamless transition , built in conversions for old projects to current format.  Seriously, I would love to be on that train.  But nope, it seems too much handholding and dancing.  I currently have a half dozen active Beta’s  that are stuck in a NetBeans 8.1.x / Java 8 scenario, that I want to port into NetBeans 11.3 / Java 13+ area, but really don’t believe that it is 1: Easy, 2: Lasting, 3: Enduring more than another release.
>>
>>     I still have reported bugs > 5 years old that are not resolved.
>>
>>     I see streams of notes that are asking questions about compatibility.  ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I see how once the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off is almost impossible.  If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this is a good trend.  If you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more than just an annoyance.  It almost easier to find another IDE to settle in on, as the amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably more, from old NetBeans to new NetBeans is formidable.
>>
>>     Maybe a 3rd party can produce a product that 100% transfer old projects to Maven..  I’d rather develop and code than mess around with trying to make things move up the NetBeans chain anymore..  Coding is fun, transitioning is not. I am 100% committed to JavaFX, I like the layouts, I like what Gluon has done, I like the look and feel.
>>
>>     NetBeans 8 –> NetBeans 11+ –> convert ...
>>
>>     I would normally apologize for my rant, but nope. I feel that I am now progressing backwards...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>>
>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: Re: Statement of disappointment

[Bradley Willcott <op...@gmail.com>]

I wish to make one final offering here.  I have found that looking at a 
working project has helped me to understand how things should be.

Therefore, if you are interested, go have a look at one of my open 
source projects: Markdownj CLI <https://github.com/bewillcott/markdownj-cli>

You will find everything you need to get your projects to work, and 
more.  There are a lot of twekes and extras.

Brad.

On 10/3/20 9:56 pm, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
>
> Did my best to help — received a ZIP file with a bunch of Java files 
> and images, no NetBeans project at all.
>
> I think a key lesson in this thread is: (1) please start a new thread 
> for each problem you have, (2) please don’t send generic rants because 
> (a) you yourself can probably express your problem much better by 
> being concise and (b) others are going to start thinking they have 
> similar points to make while in fact they have completely new points 
> to make that have nothing to do with the initial point.
>
> Please, let’s stop responding to this thread — the misunderstandings 
> in just this one thread will take weeks to untangle.
>
> Gj
>
> On Tue, 10 Mar 2020 at 14:42, Geertjan Wielenga <geertjan@apache.org 
> <ma...@apache.org>> wrote:
>
>
>
>     I have a strong suspicion that the image files are not actually in
>     the project, instead, they are somewhere outside of it.
>
>     I’m happy to spend time investigating the code, though let’s just
>     note that all this has nothing at all to do with this thread — a
>     few basic Java tutorials should be followed, I think. NetBeans is
>     a tool that assumes you have a basic understanding of the Java
>     concepts and language.
>
>     Gj
>
>     On Tue, 10 Mar 2020 at 14:38, Glenn Holmer
>     <ce...@kolabnow.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>         On 3/10/20 7:47 AM, Judi Rastall wrote:
>         > I have been doing some digging around and the first line
>         where an image
>         > is called is the line identified as giving the error.
>         However, this is
>         > part of the code generated by Netbeans when I created the
>         panel using
>         > the design feature in Netbeans. In other words, I cannot
>         alter it!
>         > Netbeans knows best!
>
>         What NetBeans is trying to say is not to edit that code
>         directly (which
>         he wisely won't allow you to do in any case). But if you click
>         on your
>         panel in design view and look over to the right at the panel
>         properties,
>         there are three buttons: "Properties", "Events", and "Code".
>         Click the
>         "Code" button and you will see a number of options for
>         customizing the
>         code that NetBeans generates.
>
>         -- 
>         Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682)
>         "After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe."
>
>         ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>         To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>         <ma...@netbeans.apache.org>
>         For additional commands, e-mail:
>         users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>         <ma...@netbeans.apache.org>
>
>         For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>         https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>]

Did my best to help — received a ZIP file with a bunch of Java files and
images, no NetBeans project at all.

I think a key lesson in this thread is: (1) please start a new thread for
each problem you have, (2) please don’t send generic rants because (a) you
yourself can probably express your problem much better by being concise and
(b) others are going to start thinking they have similar points to make
while in fact they have completely new points to make that have nothing to
do with the initial point.

Please, let’s stop responding to this thread — the misunderstandings in
just this one thread will take weeks to untangle.

Gj

On Tue, 10 Mar 2020 at 14:42, Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org> wrote:

>
>
> I have a strong suspicion that the image files are not actually in the
> project, instead, they are somewhere outside of it.
>
> I’m happy to spend time investigating the code, though let’s just note
> that all this has nothing at all to do with this thread — a few basic Java
> tutorials should be followed, I think. NetBeans is a tool that assumes you
> have a basic understanding of the Java concepts and language.
>
> Gj
>
> On Tue, 10 Mar 2020 at 14:38, Glenn Holmer <ce...@kolabnow.com.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/10/20 7:47 AM, Judi Rastall wrote:
>> > I have been doing some digging around and the first line where an image
>> > is called is the line identified as giving the error. However, this is
>> > part of the code generated by Netbeans when I created the panel using
>> > the design feature in Netbeans. In other words, I cannot alter it!
>> > Netbeans knows best!
>>
>> What NetBeans is trying to say is not to edit that code directly (which
>> he wisely won't allow you to do in any case). But if you click on your
>> panel in design view and look over to the right at the panel properties,
>> there are three buttons: "Properties", "Events", and "Code". Click the
>> "Code" button and you will see a number of options for customizing the
>> code that NetBeans generates.
>>
>> --
>> Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682)
>> "After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe."
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>>
>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>]

I have a strong suspicion that the image files are not actually in the
project, instead, they are somewhere outside of it.

I’m happy to spend time investigating the code, though let’s just note that
all this has nothing at all to do with this thread — a few basic Java
tutorials should be followed, I think. NetBeans is a tool that assumes you
have a basic understanding of the Java concepts and language.

Gj

On Tue, 10 Mar 2020 at 14:38, Glenn Holmer <ce...@kolabnow.com.invalid>
wrote:

> On 3/10/20 7:47 AM, Judi Rastall wrote:
> > I have been doing some digging around and the first line where an image
> > is called is the line identified as giving the error. However, this is
> > part of the code generated by Netbeans when I created the panel using
> > the design feature in Netbeans. In other words, I cannot alter it!
> > Netbeans knows best!
>
> What NetBeans is trying to say is not to edit that code directly (which
> he wisely won't allow you to do in any case). But if you click on your
> panel in design view and look over to the right at the panel properties,
> there are three buttons: "Properties", "Events", and "Code". Click the
> "Code" button and you will see a number of options for customizing the
> code that NetBeans generates.
>
> --
> Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682)
> "After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe."
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Glenn Holmer <ce...@kolabnow.com.INVALID>]

On 3/10/20 7:47 AM, Judi Rastall wrote:
> I have been doing some digging around and the first line where an image
> is called is the line identified as giving the error. However, this is
> part of the code generated by Netbeans when I created the panel using
> the design feature in Netbeans. In other words, I cannot alter it!
> Netbeans knows best!

What NetBeans is trying to say is not to edit that code directly (which
he wisely won't allow you to do in any case). But if you click on your
panel in design view and look over to the right at the panel properties,
there are three buttons: "Properties", "Events", and "Code". Click the
"Code" button and you will see a number of options for customizing the
code that NetBeans generates.

-- 
Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682)
"After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe."

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>]

Just send it to my e-mail address and I’ll try to help: geertjan@apache.org

Make sure the whole project is in a ZIP file, but before you create the ZIP
file, please delete the “build” folder.

Gj

On Tue, 10 Mar 2020 at 14:02, Judi Rastall <ju...@rastall.com> wrote:

> Netbeans gives a warning to not try and change the code it generates and
> says that it will change it back the next time I run or build the file.
> Someone did suggest loading my project into github. I have heard of github
> but have no idea of how to use it or load stuff into it. I guess this
> mailing group won't allow attachments?
>
>
> Judi
>
>
>
> On 10/03/2020 12:53, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
>
>
> We’d love to help you and, yes, you can indeed change code that NetBeans
> generates.
>
> Can you help us to help you — put your code somewhere so that we can look
> at it?
>
> Gj
>
> On Tue, 10 Mar 2020 at 13:48, Judi Rastall <ju...@rastall.com> wrote:
>
>> I have been doing some digging around and the first line where an image
>> is called is the line identified as giving the error. However, this is part
>> of the code generated by Netbeans when I created the panel using the design
>> feature in Netbeans. In other words, I cannot alter it! Netbeans knows best!
>>
>> I thought that using the built-in design tools would be quicker and
>> easier but that approach has been my undoing. So yes, I do blame Netbeans
>> for my difficulties.
>>
>> I have made a start on rewriting everything from scratch. This is not
>> helped by the many different ways in which different folk suggest the calls
>> should be done. Neil's suggestion of Googling loading icons was helpful but
>> did throw up several discussion threads where others were having similar
>> difficulties. It seems that every tutorial I have found gives a different
>> construction. The only thing that is keeping me going on trying to learn
>> Java at all is the goal of "write & compile once, run anywhere".
>>
>> Judi
>>
>> On 09/03/2020 18:14, Neil C Smith wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 9 Mar 2020 at 17:58, Judi Rastall <ju...@rastall.com> <ju...@rastall.com> wrote:
>>
>> Trying to run from the CMD prompt, I see this error message:
>> Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NullPointerException
>>         at javax.swing.ImageIcon.<init>(Unknown Source)
>>
>> ...
>>
>> Why will a program that runs perfectly well within the IDE fail to run when compiles?
>>
>> Quite easily!  My guess is the way you're passing the icon location
>> into ImageIcon. You may want to Google on loading icons bundling in
>> JARs - you'll find lots of info.  Loading resources from inside a JAR
>> is (can be) different to loading from the filesystem.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Neil
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>>
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>>
>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Judi Rastall <ju...@rastall.com>]

Netbeans gives a warning to not try and change the code it generates and 
says that it will change it back the next time I run or build the file. 
Someone did suggest loading my project into github. I have heard of 
github but have no idea of how to use it or load stuff into it. I guess 
this mailing group won't allow attachments?

Judi



On 10/03/2020 12:53, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
>
> We’d love to help you and, yes, you can indeed change code that 
> NetBeans generates.
>
> Can you help us to help you — put your code somewhere so that we can 
> look at it?
>
> Gj
>
> On Tue, 10 Mar 2020 at 13:48, Judi Rastall <judi@rastall.com 
> <ma...@rastall.com>> wrote:
>
>     I have been doing some digging around and the first line where an
>     image is called is the line identified as giving the error.
>     However, this is part of the code generated by Netbeans when I
>     created the panel using the design feature in Netbeans. In other
>     words, I cannot alter it! Netbeans knows best!
>
>     I thought that using the built-in design tools would be quicker
>     and easier but that approach has been my undoing. So yes, I do
>     blame Netbeans for my difficulties.
>
>     I have made a start on rewriting everything from scratch. This is
>     not helped by the many different ways in which different folk
>     suggest the calls should be done. Neil's suggestion of Googling
>     loading icons was helpful but did throw up several discussion
>     threads where others were having similar difficulties. It seems
>     that every tutorial I have found gives a different construction.
>     The only thing that is keeping me going on trying to learn Java at
>     all is the goal of "write & compile once, run anywhere".
>
>     Judi
>
>     On 09/03/2020 18:14, Neil C Smith wrote:
>>     On Mon, 9 Mar 2020 at 17:58, Judi Rastall<ju...@rastall.com>  <ma...@rastall.com>  wrote:
>>>     Trying to run from the CMD prompt, I see this error message:
>>>     Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NullPointerException
>>>              at javax.swing.ImageIcon.<init>(Unknown Source)
>>     ...
>>>     Why will a program that runs perfectly well within the IDE fail to run when compiles?
>>     Quite easily!  My guess is the way you're passing the icon location
>>     into ImageIcon. You may want to Google on loading icons bundling in
>>     JARs - you'll find lots of info.  Loading resources from inside a JAR
>>     is (can be) different to loading from the filesystem.
>>
>>     Best wishes,
>>
>>     Neil
>>
>>     ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     To unsubscribe, e-mail:users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org  <ma...@netbeans.apache.org>
>>     For additional commands, e-mail:users-help@netbeans.apache.org  <ma...@netbeans.apache.org>
>>
>>     For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>>     https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>
>

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>]

We’d love to help you and, yes, you can indeed change code that NetBeans
generates.

Can you help us to help you — put your code somewhere so that we can look
at it?

Gj

On Tue, 10 Mar 2020 at 13:48, Judi Rastall <ju...@rastall.com> wrote:

> I have been doing some digging around and the first line where an image is
> called is the line identified as giving the error. However, this is part of
> the code generated by Netbeans when I created the panel using the design
> feature in Netbeans. In other words, I cannot alter it! Netbeans knows best!
>
> I thought that using the built-in design tools would be quicker and easier
> but that approach has been my undoing. So yes, I do blame Netbeans for my
> difficulties.
>
> I have made a start on rewriting everything from scratch. This is not
> helped by the many different ways in which different folk suggest the calls
> should be done. Neil's suggestion of Googling loading icons was helpful but
> did throw up several discussion threads where others were having similar
> difficulties. It seems that every tutorial I have found gives a different
> construction. The only thing that is keeping me going on trying to learn
> Java at all is the goal of "write & compile once, run anywhere".
>
> Judi
>
> On 09/03/2020 18:14, Neil C Smith wrote:
>
> On Mon, 9 Mar 2020 at 17:58, Judi Rastall <ju...@rastall.com> <ju...@rastall.com> wrote:
>
> Trying to run from the CMD prompt, I see this error message:
> Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NullPointerException
>         at javax.swing.ImageIcon.<init>(Unknown Source)
>
> ...
>
> Why will a program that runs perfectly well within the IDE fail to run when compiles?
>
> Quite easily!  My guess is the way you're passing the icon location
> into ImageIcon. You may want to Google on loading icons bundling in
> JARs - you'll find lots of info.  Loading resources from inside a JAR
> is (can be) different to loading from the filesystem.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Judi Rastall <ju...@rastall.com>]

I have been doing some digging around and the first line where an image 
is called is the line identified as giving the error. However, this is 
part of the code generated by Netbeans when I created the panel using 
the design feature in Netbeans. In other words, I cannot alter it! 
Netbeans knows best!

I thought that using the built-in design tools would be quicker and 
easier but that approach has been my undoing. So yes, I do blame 
Netbeans for my difficulties.

I have made a start on rewriting everything from scratch. This is not 
helped by the many different ways in which different folk suggest the 
calls should be done. Neil's suggestion of Googling loading icons was 
helpful but did throw up several discussion threads where others were 
having similar difficulties. It seems that every tutorial I have found 
gives a different construction. The only thing that is keeping me going 
on trying to learn Java at all is the goal of "write & compile once, run 
anywhere".

Judi

On 09/03/2020 18:14, Neil C Smith wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Mar 2020 at 17:58, Judi Rastall <ju...@rastall.com> wrote:
>> Trying to run from the CMD prompt, I see this error message:
>> Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NullPointerException
>>          at javax.swing.ImageIcon.<init>(Unknown Source)
> ...
>> Why will a program that runs perfectly well within the IDE fail to run when compiles?
> Quite easily!  My guess is the way you're passing the icon location
> into ImageIcon. You may want to Google on loading icons bundling in
> JARs - you'll find lots of info.  Loading resources from inside a JAR
> is (can be) different to loading from the filesystem.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>]

On Mon, 9 Mar 2020 at 17:58, Judi Rastall <ju...@rastall.com> wrote:
> Trying to run from the CMD prompt, I see this error message:
> Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NullPointerException
>         at javax.swing.ImageIcon.<init>(Unknown Source)
...
> Why will a program that runs perfectly well within the IDE fail to run when compiles?

Quite easily!  My guess is the way you're passing the icon location
into ImageIcon. You may want to Google on loading icons bundling in
JARs - you'll find lots of info.  Loading resources from inside a JAR
is (can be) different to loading from the filesystem.

Best wishes,

Neil

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org

For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Judi Rastall <ju...@rastall.com>]

Maybe I'm trying to run before I can walk but I have set myself the 
target of rewriting a program I've inherited in Delphi into Java because 
I want to offer the program to run on any platform. So far I have 
written a splash screen with two buttons - Go and Quit. This then loads 
a menu bar which has a number of buttons which then call various 
functions or routines. So far I have two buttons active which load 
either  table or a screen of help text. Everything works perfectly 
within the IDE when I "Run" the program from there. However, when I 
"Clean & Build", the resulting jar file won't run.

Trying to run from the CMD prompt, I see this error message:
Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NullPointerException
         at javax.swing.ImageIcon.<init>(Unknown Source)
         at wagonflow5.StartScreen.initComponents(StartScreen.java:70)
         at wagonflow5.StartScreen.<init>(StartScreen.java:25)
         at wagonflow5.WagonFlow5.main(WagonFlow5.java:30)

I am running Apache Netbeans 11.3 on Windows 10. Java - version gives:
java version "1.8.0_241"
Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.8.0_241-b07)
Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build 25.241-b07, mixed mode, sharing)

Why will a program that runs perfectly well within the IDE fail to run 
when compiles?

Judi

On 09/03/2020 16:09, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
> Give us some idea of what the problems are, and maybe we can help?
>
> Gj
>
> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 5:07 PM Judi Rastall <judi@rastall.com 
> <ma...@rastall.com>> wrote:
>
>     I have to admit I'm on the point of giving up with Netbeans 11.
>     Programs that used to compile quite happily with V8 no longer
>     compile. I am using images in a subdirectory and the V11 compiler
>     cannot find them so I get null exceptions and it sulks.
>
>     Judi
>
>     On 09/03/2020 15:52, Chris Olsen wrote:
>>     Paul (and All) --
>>
>>         As they say, "I feel your pain!"   The removal of FX was a pain in the behind for me also, and I am also moving over to Maven from Ant.   I am a complete amateur (though experienced, Java is about my 5th language.)   Much of the more technical discussions among Java developers go way over my head.
>>
>>         HOWEVER, I have been able to move easily from before to now.  My programs are almost exclusively statistical, and not really pushing the limits of Java, which situation may not apply to many.   I found the transition from 8  to Java 13 (AdoptOpenJDK) to be unexpectedly painless and the transition to Maven relatively easy (for the most part just copying over packages and trying to figure out where to put resources.)
>>
>>         And I am anticipating 14 soon.
>>
>>         -- Chris
>>
>>         
>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>     From: Paul Szudzik<ps...@throwarock.com>  <ma...@throwarock.com>
>>     To: Netbeans Mailing List<us...@netbeans.apache.org>  <ma...@netbeans.apache.org>
>>     Sent: Mon, 09 Mar 2020 11:15:49 -0400 (EDT)
>>     Subject: Statement of disappointment
>>
>>          I have been a NetBeans user since inception.  I am retired now, but when I worked, I was one of the few people in my company that was an advocate of NetBeans, and used it instead of the company line, Eclipse product.
>>
>>          Retired now for 10+ years, I used NetBeans to develop my products, and really getting involved in JavaFX big time. I love the cross platform capability, and use it on both Ubuntu and Windows.  Raspberry Pi, no problem.  Windows, no problem.  I loved it. Then boom, Oracle takes JavaFX out of the mix, and NetBeans and I start having major problems. It gets harder and harder to use NetBeans with it’s incompatibility with JavaFX without going through hoops every single time we upgrade.  I have a ton of projects that are a major pain to go back to without having to dance on a high wire to get to work.  And I am still not sure I can do this anymore.
>>
>>          I have been a computer programmer, designer and architect for well over 53+ years.  I have see many systems come and go, many IDE rise and fall, many languages surface and crash.  The move to Maven is beyond my scope now.  I want to program, not to have to regenerate and rehash my build system every release.  I have tried to move over to 11, and mostly failed.  I have too many modules and programs in play to hack this out.
>>
>>          It would have been great if NetBeans had a seamless transition , built in conversions for old projects to current format.  Seriously, I would love to be on that train.  But nope, it seems too much handholding and dancing.  I currently have a half dozen active Beta’s  that are stuck in a NetBeans 8.1.x / Java 8 scenario, that I want to port into NetBeans 11.3 / Java 13+ area, but really don’t believe that it is 1: Easy, 2: Lasting, 3: Enduring more than another release.
>>
>>          I still have reported bugs > 5 years old that are not resolved.
>>
>>          I see streams of notes that are asking questions about compatibility.  ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I see how once the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off is almost impossible.  If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this is a good trend.  If you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more than just an annoyance.  It almost easier to find another IDE to settle in on, as the amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably more, from old NetBeans to new NetBeans is formidable.
>>
>>          Maybe a 3rd party can produce a product that 100% transfer old projects to Maven..  I’d rather develop and code than mess around with trying to make things move up the NetBeans chain anymore..  Coding is fun, transitioning is not. I am 100% committed to JavaFX, I like the layouts, I like what Gluon has done, I like the look and feel.
>>
>>          NetBeans 8 –> NetBeans 11+ –> convert ...
>>
>>          I would normally apologize for my rant, but nope. I feel that I am now progressing backwards...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     To unsubscribe, e-mail:users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org  <ma...@netbeans.apache.org>
>>     For additional commands, e-mail:users-help@netbeans.apache.org  <ma...@netbeans.apache.org>
>>
>>     For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>>     https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>
>

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@apache.org>]

Give us some idea of what the problems are, and maybe we can help?

Gj

On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 5:07 PM Judi Rastall <ju...@rastall.com> wrote:

> I have to admit I'm on the point of giving up with Netbeans 11. Programs
> that used to compile quite happily with V8 no longer compile. I am using
> images in a subdirectory and the V11 compiler cannot find them so I get
> null exceptions and it sulks.
>
> Judi
>
> On 09/03/2020 15:52, Chris Olsen wrote:
>
> Paul (and All) --
>
>    As they say, "I feel your pain!"   The removal of FX was a pain in the behind for me also, and I am also moving over to Maven from Ant.   I am a complete amateur (though experienced, Java is about my 5th language.)   Much of the more technical discussions among Java developers go way over my head.
>
>    HOWEVER, I have been able to move easily from before to now.  My programs are almost exclusively statistical, and not really pushing the limits of Java, which situation may not apply to many.   I found the transition from 8  to Java 13 (AdoptOpenJDK) to be unexpectedly painless and the transition to Maven relatively easy (for the most part just copying over packages and trying to figure out where to put resources.)
>
>    And I am anticipating 14 soon.
>
>    -- Chris
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com> <ps...@throwarock.com>
> To: Netbeans Mailing List <us...@netbeans.apache.org> <us...@netbeans.apache.org>
> Sent: Mon, 09 Mar 2020 11:15:49 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Statement of disappointment
>
>     I have been a NetBeans user since inception.  I am retired now, but when I worked, I was one of the few people in my company that was an advocate of NetBeans, and used it instead of the company line, Eclipse product.
>
>     Retired now for 10+ years, I used NetBeans to develop my products, and really getting involved in JavaFX big time. I love the cross platform capability, and use it on both Ubuntu and Windows.  Raspberry Pi, no problem.  Windows, no problem.  I loved it. Then boom, Oracle takes JavaFX out of the mix, and NetBeans and I start having major problems. It gets harder and harder to use NetBeans with it’s incompatibility with JavaFX without going through hoops every single time we upgrade.  I have a ton of projects that are a major pain to go back to without having to dance on a high wire to get to work.  And I am still not sure I can do this anymore.
>
>     I have been a computer programmer, designer and architect for well over 53+ years.  I have see many systems come and go, many IDE rise and fall, many languages surface and crash.  The move to Maven is beyond my scope now.  I want to program, not to have to regenerate and rehash my build system every release.  I have tried to move over to 11, and mostly failed.  I have too many modules and programs in play to hack this out.
>
>     It would have been great if NetBeans had a seamless transition , built in conversions for old projects to current format.  Seriously, I would love to be on that train.  But nope, it seems too much handholding and dancing.  I currently have a half dozen active Beta’s  that are stuck in a NetBeans 8.1.x / Java 8 scenario, that I want to port into NetBeans 11.3 / Java 13+ area, but really don’t believe that it is 1: Easy, 2: Lasting, 3: Enduring more than another release.
>
>     I still have reported bugs > 5 years old that are not resolved.
>
>     I see streams of notes that are asking questions about compatibility.  ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I see how once the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off is almost impossible.  If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this is a good trend.  If you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more than just an annoyance.  It almost easier to find another IDE to settle in on, as the amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably more, from old NetBeans to new NetBeans is formidable.
>
>     Maybe a 3rd party can produce a product that 100% transfer old projects to Maven..  I’d rather develop and code than mess around with trying to make things move up the NetBeans chain anymore..  Coding is fun, transitioning is not. I am 100% committed to JavaFX, I like the layouts, I like what Gluon has done, I like the look and feel.
>
>     NetBeans 8 –> NetBeans 11+ –> convert ...
>
>     I would normally apologize for my rant, but nope. I feel that I am now progressing backwards...
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Judi Rastall <ju...@rastall.com>]

I have to admit I'm on the point of giving up with Netbeans 11. Programs 
that used to compile quite happily with V8 no longer compile. I am using 
images in a subdirectory and the V11 compiler cannot find them so I get 
null exceptions and it sulks.

Judi

On 09/03/2020 15:52, Chris Olsen wrote:
> Paul (and All) --
>
>     As they say, "I feel your pain!"   The removal of FX was a pain in the behind for me also, and I am also moving over to Maven from Ant.   I am a complete amateur (though experienced, Java is about my 5th language.)   Much of the more technical discussions among Java developers go way over my head.
>
>     HOWEVER, I have been able to move easily from before to now.  My programs are almost exclusively statistical, and not really pushing the limits of Java, which situation may not apply to many.   I found the transition from 8  to Java 13 (AdoptOpenJDK) to be unexpectedly painless and the transition to Maven relatively easy (for the most part just copying over packages and trying to figure out where to put resources.)
>
>     And I am anticipating 14 soon.
>
>     -- Chris
>
>     
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>
> To: Netbeans Mailing List <us...@netbeans.apache.org>
> Sent: Mon, 09 Mar 2020 11:15:49 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Statement of disappointment
>
>      I have been a NetBeans user since inception.  I am retired now, but when I worked, I was one of the few people in my company that was an advocate of NetBeans, and used it instead of the company line, Eclipse product.
>
>      Retired now for 10+ years, I used NetBeans to develop my products, and really getting involved in JavaFX big time. I love the cross platform capability, and use it on both Ubuntu and Windows.  Raspberry Pi, no problem.  Windows, no problem.  I loved it. Then boom, Oracle takes JavaFX out of the mix, and NetBeans and I start having major problems. It gets harder and harder to use NetBeans with it’s incompatibility with JavaFX without going through hoops every single time we upgrade.  I have a ton of projects that are a major pain to go back to without having to dance on a high wire to get to work.  And I am still not sure I can do this anymore.
>
>      I have been a computer programmer, designer and architect for well over 53+ years.  I have see many systems come and go, many IDE rise and fall, many languages surface and crash.  The move to Maven is beyond my scope now.  I want to program, not to have to regenerate and rehash my build system every release.  I have tried to move over to 11, and mostly failed.  I have too many modules and programs in play to hack this out.
>
>      It would have been great if NetBeans had a seamless transition , built in conversions for old projects to current format.  Seriously, I would love to be on that train.  But nope, it seems too much handholding and dancing.  I currently have a half dozen active Beta’s  that are stuck in a NetBeans 8.1.x / Java 8 scenario, that I want to port into NetBeans 11.3 / Java 13+ area, but really don’t believe that it is 1: Easy, 2: Lasting, 3: Enduring more than another release.
>
>      I still have reported bugs > 5 years old that are not resolved.
>
>      I see streams of notes that are asking questions about compatibility.  ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I see how once the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off is almost impossible.  If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this is a good trend.  If you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more than just an annoyance.  It almost easier to find another IDE to settle in on, as the amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably more, from old NetBeans to new NetBeans is formidable.
>
>      Maybe a 3rd party can produce a product that 100% transfer old projects to Maven..  I’d rather develop and code than mess around with trying to make things move up the NetBeans chain anymore..  Coding is fun, transitioning is not. I am 100% committed to JavaFX, I like the layouts, I like what Gluon has done, I like the look and feel.
>
>      NetBeans 8 –> NetBeans 11+ –> convert ...
>
>      I would normally apologize for my rant, but nope. I feel that I am now progressing backwards...
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>

Re: Statement of disappointment

[Chris Olsen <co...@mchsi.com>]

Paul (and All) --

   As they say, "I feel your pain!"   The removal of FX was a pain in the behind for me also, and I am also moving over to Maven from Ant.   I am a complete amateur (though experienced, Java is about my 5th language.)   Much of the more technical discussions among Java developers go way over my head.

   HOWEVER, I have been able to move easily from before to now.  My programs are almost exclusively statistical, and not really pushing the limits of Java, which situation may not apply to many.   I found the transition from 8  to Java 13 (AdoptOpenJDK) to be unexpectedly painless and the transition to Maven relatively easy (for the most part just copying over packages and trying to figure out where to put resources.)

   And I am anticipating 14 soon.

   -- Chris

   
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Szudzik <ps...@throwarock.com>
To: Netbeans Mailing List <us...@netbeans.apache.org>
Sent: Mon, 09 Mar 2020 11:15:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Statement of disappointment

    I have been a NetBeans user since inception.  I am retired now, but when I worked, I was one of the few people in my company that was an advocate of NetBeans, and used it instead of the company line, Eclipse product.

    Retired now for 10+ years, I used NetBeans to develop my products, and really getting involved in JavaFX big time. I love the cross platform capability, and use it on both Ubuntu and Windows.  Raspberry Pi, no problem.  Windows, no problem.  I loved it. Then boom, Oracle takes JavaFX out of the mix, and NetBeans and I start having major problems. It gets harder and harder to use NetBeans with it’s incompatibility with JavaFX without going through hoops every single time we upgrade.  I have a ton of projects that are a major pain to go back to without having to dance on a high wire to get to work.  And I am still not sure I can do this anymore.  

    I have been a computer programmer, designer and architect for well over 53+ years.  I have see many systems come and go, many IDE rise and fall, many languages surface and crash.  The move to Maven is beyond my scope now.  I want to program, not to have to regenerate and rehash my build system every release.  I have tried to move over to 11, and mostly failed.  I have too many modules and programs in play to hack this out.

    It would have been great if NetBeans had a seamless transition , built in conversions for old projects to current format.  Seriously, I would love to be on that train.  But nope, it seems too much handholding and dancing.  I currently have a half dozen active Beta’s  that are stuck in a NetBeans 8.1.x / Java 8 scenario, that I want to port into NetBeans 11.3 / Java 13+ area, but really don’t believe that it is 1: Easy, 2: Lasting, 3: Enduring more than another release.

    I still have reported bugs > 5 years old that are not resolved.

    I see streams of notes that are asking questions about compatibility.  ( The latest straw is the Ant image ... )  I see how once the major players in NetBeans get on a wagon, the trail off is almost impossible.  If you’re new to NetBeans, perhaps this is a good trend.  If you have dealt with NetBeans as long as I have.. it becomes more than just an annoyance.  It almost easier to find another IDE to settle in on, as the amount of work to transfer 100+ projects, probably more, from old NetBeans to new NetBeans is formidable.

    Maybe a 3rd party can produce a product that 100% transfer old projects to Maven..  I’d rather develop and code than mess around with trying to make things move up the NetBeans chain anymore..  Coding is fun, transitioning is not. I am 100% committed to JavaFX, I like the layouts, I like what Gluon has done, I like the look and feel.

    NetBeans 8 –> NetBeans 11+ –> convert ...

    I would normally apologize for my rant, but nope. I feel that I am now progressing backwards...




---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org

For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists