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Posted to dev@nuttx.apache.org by David Sidrane <Da...@nscdg.com> on 2019/12/19 12:41:59 UTC
[Degrees of freedom under ASF ]
I would like to get some clarification on the projects degrees of freedom
under ASF from our mentors.
Since we are all (except a few) new to the “Apache way” I think we need
some enlightenment.
I feel it is important that we, as a group, understand what are
guidelines, rules and absolutes.
I do not want to be taking statements out of context and acting on them
without asking questions as this could severely curtail the growth of this
project.
=== Questions ===
Am I correct in understanding that ASF requires project dev communications
to be in the open and publicly available” ?
Does this need to be on only these mailing lists we have been provided by
ASF? Or can we be using Google Groups and mirror the reference the list?
I ask this for the reason that the lists are very hard to follow. Granted
I may be using them wrong, but having 150 emails a day that lack any
context is more noise than signal and I find it a HUGE a waste of time. If
this is the only option I am open to be instructed on how to use them
better.
Who is the moderator on a list?
- If someone is being abusive is that left on the list forever?
How does one correct a mistake in their post?
Is it an ASF edict to not use the existing NuttX slack?
Other than the release procedures and distribution tools/locations is the
project free to use any tool we want for development, testing and CI?
Given the history in the name of ASF: Are we required to support changes
by patches?
- What tool does apache support for avoiding duplicate work on
patches? Is there a semaphore?
- How does a group review a patch collaboratively?
David
Re: [Degrees of freedom under ASF ]
Posted by "张铎 (Duo Zhang)" <pa...@gmail.com>.
In general, all discussion should happen on the infrastruct hosted by ASF,
like mailing-list, JIRA, etc. This is what I have learned in the past.
And when GitHub becomes popular, the solution is to send the comments on
GitHub to a special mailing list of the project to record them on the
infrastructure hosted by ASF. And now we start to slack, so I'm not sure if
this is a strict rule now. But anyway, I think all discussion should happen
in public, so Greg has archived the private slack channels, which I think
is fine. Maybe Justin and Junping could better answer this question.
And on developing, there is no rule in ASF on how to do development. You
PMC members and committers can decide what is the suitable way. The only
limitation is that, the discussion should be public.
For me, I suggest we use GitHub PR, after the repo migration is done. And I
thiknk it is free for others to send the patch directly to you or Greg or
other committers(since it seems that this mailing-list is not suitable for
attachment), you could help opening a PR, just describe clearly that where
is the patch come from.
Thanks.
David Sidrane <Da...@nscdg.com> 于2019年12月19日周四 下午9:13写道：
> I would like to get some clarification on the projects degrees of freedom
> under ASF from our mentors.
>
> Since we are all (except a few) new to the “Apache way” I think we need
> some enlightenment.
>
> I feel it is important that we, as a group, understand what are
> guidelines, rules and absolutes.
>
> I do not want to be taking statements out of context and acting on them
> without asking questions as this could severely curtail the growth of this
> project.
>
>
> === Questions ===
>
> Am I correct in understanding that ASF requires project dev communications
> to be in the open and publicly available” ?
>
> Does this need to be on only these mailing lists we have been provided by
> ASF? Or can we be using Google Groups and mirror the reference the list?
>
> I ask this for the reason that the lists are very hard to follow. Granted
> I may be using them wrong, but having 150 emails a day that lack any
> context is more noise than signal and I find it a HUGE a waste of time. If
> this is the only option I am open to be instructed on how to use them
> better.
>
> Who is the moderator on a list?
> - If someone is being abusive is that left on the list forever?
> How does one correct a mistake in their post?
>
> Is it an ASF edict to not use the existing NuttX slack?
>
> Other than the release procedures and distribution tools/locations is the
> project free to use any tool we want for development, testing and CI?
>
> Given the history in the name of ASF: Are we required to support changes
> by patches?
> - What tool does apache support for avoiding duplicate work on
> patches? Is there a semaphore?
> - How does a group review a patch collaboratively?
>
>
> David
>
RE: [Degrees of freedom under ASF ]
Posted by David Sidrane <Da...@nscdg.com>.
First I would say: It is really good as an It is an archive, leave at that
google, Done!
-----Original Message-----
From: Nathan Hartman [mailto:hartman.nathan@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2019 7:16 AM
To: dev@nuttx.apache.org
Subject: Re: [Degrees of freedom under ASF ]
On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 10:11 AM David Sidrane <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 2019/12/19 14:00:36, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com> wrote:
> > It’s preferable yes. But if they can be archived and searchable that’s
> > fine. Often a solution is automatically sending that conversion to a
> > mailing list or bringing back a summary to the list.
>
> Do I understand you correctly? We can use the original google group and
> add a user there with the dev@nuttx.apache.org?
Now that would be interesting, if we could sync the two somehow.
Re: [Degrees of freedom under ASF ]
Posted by Gregory Nutt <sp...@gmail.com>.
>>> It’s preferable yes. But if they can be archived and searchable that’s fine. Often a solution is automatically sending that conversion to a mailing list or bringing back a summary to the list.
>> Do I understand you correctly? We can use the original google group and add a user there with the dev@nuttx.apache.org?
> Now that would be interesting, if we could sync the two somehow.
I tried doing that when we transitioned from the yahoo to the google
group. I could not get it to work but I don't remember why.
So you would try to send to dev-subscribe@apache.org from
nuttx@googlegroups.com and send to nuttx+subscribe@googlegroups.com?
Would you spoof the return address?
All members of the both groups would get the subscribe information.
There might be challenges with full duplex. I am not sure how you would
avoid the storms when when message is sent google->apache, then forward
apache->google, then forwarded again to google->apache, etc.
Re: [Degrees of freedom under ASF ]
Posted by Nathan Hartman <ha...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 10:11 AM David Sidrane <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 2019/12/19 14:00:36, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com> wrote:
> > It’s preferable yes. But if they can be archived and searchable that’s fine. Often a solution is automatically sending that conversion to a mailing list or bringing back a summary to the list.
>
> Do I understand you correctly? We can use the original google group and add a user there with the dev@nuttx.apache.org?
Now that would be interesting, if we could sync the two somehow.
Re: [Degrees of freedom under ASF ]
Posted by Nathan Hartman <ha...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 10:11 AM David Sidrane <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 2019/12/19 14:00:36, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com> wrote:
> > > Does this need to be on only these mailing lists we have been provided by
> > > ASF?
> >
> > It’s preferable yes. But if they can be archived and searchable that’s fine. Often a solution is automatically sending that conversion to a mailing list or bringing back a summary to the list.
I think the biggest reason for keeping communications on the ASF lists
is because of archiving.
Too often on the internet, important resources just disappear in a
puff of smoke one day.
I can give plenty of examples of when this happened but I don't think
that's necessary. I'm sure you've run into enough broken links to
websites that contained something important and no longer exist.
Our communications often document some very important things that
aren't documented anywhere else. By keeping them within the ASF, at
least we're assured that the archives will be around for as long as
the ASF exists, and hopefully that will be a long, long time.
Nathan
Re: [Degrees of freedom under ASF ]
Posted by Nathan Hartman <ha...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 3:44 PM Gregory Nutt <sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/19/2019 2:35 PM, Justin Mclean wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> >> Do I understand you correctly? We can use the original google group and
> add a user there with the dev@nuttx.apache.org?
> > Mailing list are archived / mirrored in serval places, here’s a couple:
> > https://lists.apache.org
> > https://markmail.org/search/
> > https://nabble.com (for some lists and it’s a more user forum like
> approach)
> >
> > While might be possible to keep the google group and have all email
> copied here and thus archived, there would be other things that would need
> to be carefully considered. For context no other project has their main
> form of communication outside of ASF hardware. Some projects communicate a
> lot via JIRA or GitHub issues and these interactions are sent to the
> projects mailing list. There's a project happening to help archive and
> translate instant messaging, that’s probably 6 months or more away from
> working out how that works with ASF infrastructure and ASF values.
> >
> > One other consideration. Google groups may go away as some point, it’s
> not like google hasn’t removed other services before. While it seems
> unlikely that it will disappear tomorrow, what about in 5 year to 10 years
> or 20 years? Can everyone have access it? For instance, some google
> services are blocked in China. I assume you need a google account to be
> able to use it, can everyone create one to be part of the project? As a
> comparison the ASF plans to be around for 50+ years and keeps access open
> to everyone.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Justin
>
> And there are things that are just as bad as "going away." NuttX left
> the Yahoo group because the service deteriorated to the point it was
> unusable. This was at the time when the world first realized that the
> Yahoo was falling apart. The group became nearly non-functional. Mail
> was not being delivered or mail would be delayed for several days and
> finally showed up when it was no longer in context. It became useless.
>
> And there was the fear that it would go away but that never actually
> happened.
>
> The old Yahoo group is archived at
> https://nuttx.yahoogroups.narkive.com/ but the group itself was deleted.
>
> I would recommend that we do the same with the Google group down the
> road... archive it some where and dismantle the group. Not right at
> this moment, of course, but when traffic there dies down sufficiently.
Please don't delete the google group. It contains important knowledge and
experiences that aren't documented anywhere else.
Instead, when the time is right, I suggest to make one last post to point
people to Apache NuttX, then block new posts.
In the future we may need to research a way to archive the group, or at
least important discussions, and make it available under ASF hardware. It
may take some effort to do that but some of the information there is
priceless. There are tidbits of Greg explaining the rationale behind how
various things work, which comes from his decades and decades of
experience. There are posts where people ran into problems and then solved
them and documented the solution. If this all goes up in smoke we lose a
LOT!
I would love if we could somehow bring this information under the Apache
NuttX umbrella.
Nathan
Re: [Degrees of freedom under ASF ]
Posted by Gregory Nutt <sp...@gmail.com>.
On 12/19/2019 2:35 PM, Justin Mclean wrote:
> Hi,
>
>> Do I understand you correctly? We can use the original google group and add a user there with the dev@nuttx.apache.org?
> Mailing list are archived / mirrored in serval places, here’s a couple:
> https://lists.apache.org
> https://markmail.org/search/
> https://nabble.com (for some lists and it’s a more user forum like approach)
>
> While might be possible to keep the google group and have all email copied here and thus archived, there would be other things that would need to be carefully considered. For context no other project has their main form of communication outside of ASF hardware. Some projects communicate a lot via JIRA or GitHub issues and these interactions are sent to the projects mailing list. There's a project happening to help archive and translate instant messaging, that’s probably 6 months or more away from working out how that works with ASF infrastructure and ASF values.
>
> One other consideration. Google groups may go away as some point, it’s not like google hasn’t removed other services before. While it seems unlikely that it will disappear tomorrow, what about in 5 year to 10 years or 20 years? Can everyone have access it? For instance, some google services are blocked in China. I assume you need a google account to be able to use it, can everyone create one to be part of the project? As a comparison the ASF plans to be around for 50+ years and keeps access open to everyone.
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
And there are things that are just as bad as "going away." NuttX left
the Yahoo group because the service deteriorated to the point it was
unusable. This was at the time when the world first realized that the
Yahoo was falling apart. The group became nearly non-functional. Mail
was not being delivered or mail would be delayed for several days and
finally showed up when it was no longer in context. It became useless.
And there was the fear that it would go away but that never actually
happened.
The old Yahoo group is archived at
https://nuttx.yahoogroups.narkive.com/ but the group itself was deleted.
I would recommend that we do the same with the Google group down the
road... archive it some where and dismantle the group. Not right at
this moment, of course, but when traffic there dies down sufficiently.
Group
Re: [Degrees of freedom under ASF ]
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
> Do I understand you correctly? We can use the original google group and add a user there with the dev@nuttx.apache.org?
Mailing list are archived / mirrored in serval places, here’s a couple:
https://lists.apache.org
https://markmail.org/search/
https://nabble.com (for some lists and it’s a more user forum like approach)
While might be possible to keep the google group and have all email copied here and thus archived, there would be other things that would need to be carefully considered. For context no other project has their main form of communication outside of ASF hardware. Some projects communicate a lot via JIRA or GitHub issues and these interactions are sent to the projects mailing list. There's a project happening to help archive and translate instant messaging, that’s probably 6 months or more away from working out how that works with ASF infrastructure and ASF values.
One other consideration. Google groups may go away as some point, it’s not like google hasn’t removed other services before. While it seems unlikely that it will disappear tomorrow, what about in 5 year to 10 years or 20 years? Can everyone have access it? For instance, some google services are blocked in China. I assume you need a google account to be able to use it, can everyone create one to be part of the project? As a comparison the ASF plans to be around for 50+ years and keeps access open to everyone.
Thanks,
Justin
Re: [Degrees of freedom under ASF ]
Posted by David Sidrane <da...@apache.org>.
Thank you Justin for the quick answers!
1 more below
On 2019/12/19 14:00:36, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> > I would like to get some clarification on the projects degrees of freedom
> > under ASF from our mentors.
>
> As long as you follow the Apache Way you are free to do what you want. We have a lot of history and over time have built up guidelines which describe what has worked well. Sometimes it's not obvious why these guidelines may exists, so ask if you don’t know or understand or think they seem strange. Sometimes these guideline might not work for your project, that’s OK, if you want to do things in a different way discuss it with the incubator PMC. There is not one path for all projects.
>
> > Am I correct in understanding that ASF requires project dev communications
> > to be in the open and publicly available” ?
>
> Yes.
>
> > Does this need to be on only these mailing lists we have been provided by
> > ASF?
>
> It’s preferable yes. But if they can be archived and searchable that’s fine. Often a solution is automatically sending that conversion to a mailing list or bringing back a summary to the list.
Do I understand you correctly? We can use the original google group and add a user there with the dev@nuttx.apache.org?
>
> > I ask this for the reason that the lists are very hard to follow.
>
> Use subject line to guide you, Id suggest using an email client that supports threads and rules to group messages. You don’t have to read everything. Given it is early days, there’s a lot of noise, I think this will get better over time.
>
> > Who is the moderator on a list?
>
> There’s a couple of moderators, if you want to be one just ask, but that’s more to accept/reject emails from people who are not subscribed. All emails from a subscribed address are automatically accepted.
>
> > - If someone is being abusive is that left on the list forever?
>
> In general yes. It hard to remove emails and they are archived in many public places.
>
> > How does one correct a mistake in their post?
>
> Generally just reply and correct the mistake.
>
> > Is it an ASF edict to not use the existing NuttX slack?
>
> No but we would prefer conversation on the mailing list for reasons mentioned above.
>
> > Other than the release procedures and distribution tools/locations is the
> > project free to use any tool we want for development, testing and CI?
>
> In general yes. Some tools are easier to use as Infra already supports them.
>
> > Given the history in the name of ASF: Are we required to support changes
> > by patches?
> > - What tool does apache support for avoiding duplicate work on
> > patches? Is there a semaphore?
> > - How does a group review a patch collaboratively?
>
> There’s no ASF requirements here, it's up to the project to work that out.
>
> Hope that helps and answer your questions. If you have any or just ask.
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
Re: [Degrees of freedom under ASF ]
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
> I would like to get some clarification on the projects degrees of freedom
> under ASF from our mentors.
As long as you follow the Apache Way you are free to do what you want. We have a lot of history and over time have built up guidelines which describe what has worked well. Sometimes it's not obvious why these guidelines may exists, so ask if you don’t know or understand or think they seem strange. Sometimes these guideline might not work for your project, that’s OK, if you want to do things in a different way discuss it with the incubator PMC. There is not one path for all projects.
> Am I correct in understanding that ASF requires project dev communications
> to be in the open and publicly available” ?
Yes.
> Does this need to be on only these mailing lists we have been provided by
> ASF?
It’s preferable yes. But if they can be archived and searchable that’s fine. Often a solution is automatically sending that conversion to a mailing list or bringing back a summary to the list.
> I ask this for the reason that the lists are very hard to follow.
Use subject line to guide you, Id suggest using an email client that supports threads and rules to group messages. You don’t have to read everything. Given it is early days, there’s a lot of noise, I think this will get better over time.
> Who is the moderator on a list?
There’s a couple of moderators, if you want to be one just ask, but that’s more to accept/reject emails from people who are not subscribed. All emails from a subscribed address are automatically accepted.
> - If someone is being abusive is that left on the list forever?
In general yes. It hard to remove emails and they are archived in many public places.
> How does one correct a mistake in their post?
Generally just reply and correct the mistake.
> Is it an ASF edict to not use the existing NuttX slack?
No but we would prefer conversation on the mailing list for reasons mentioned above.
> Other than the release procedures and distribution tools/locations is the
> project free to use any tool we want for development, testing and CI?
In general yes. Some tools are easier to use as Infra already supports them.
> Given the history in the name of ASF: Are we required to support changes
> by patches?
> - What tool does apache support for avoiding duplicate work on
> patches? Is there a semaphore?
> - How does a group review a patch collaboratively?
There’s no ASF requirements here, it's up to the project to work that out.
Hope that helps and answer your questions. If you have any or just ask.
Thanks,
Justin