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Posted to legal-discuss@apache.org by "Benson Margulies (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org> on 2009/12/05 01:52:20 UTC
[jira] Created: (LEGAL-66) CERN license category?
CERN license category?
----------------------
Key: LEGAL-66
URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-66
Project: Legal Discuss
Issue Type: Question
Reporter: Benson Margulies
If OK, do we also add an ASL notice?
// Copyright (c) 1999 CERN - European Organization for Nuclear Research.
// Permission to use, copy, modify, distribute and sell this software and
// its documentation for any purpose is hereby granted without fee,
// provided that the above copyright notice appear in all copies and that
// both that copyright notice and this permission notice appear in
// supporting documentation. CERN makes no representations about the
// suitability of this software for any purpose. It is provided "as is"
// without expressed or implied warranty.
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Re: [jira] Commented: (LEGAL-66) CERN license category?
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@apache.org>.
I seem to recall the Colt product has code under two licenses, the other
being a anti-military license. Has that second license come up in
conversation about bringing in the Colt code?
Hen
On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 2:13 PM, Niall Pemberton (JIRA) <ji...@apache.org>wrote:
>
> [
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-66?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=12786720#action_12786720]
>
> Niall Pemberton commented on LEGAL-66:
> --------------------------------------
>
> Theres a discussion about bringing in the Colt code to commons that is
> under that license here:
>
> * http://markmail.org/message/ut5ftprsaiq4a7ak
>
> As that thread indicates, Hadoop has already forked the code, brining it
> into their repository:
> * https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/MAHOUT-165
> * http://svn.apache.org/viewvc?view=revision&revision=883365
>
> Obviously the initial question about whether the license is acceptable
> needs to be addressed first. Assuming that its OK though, this is different
> from the normal "can we ship a libaray under this license with our code?"
> question, since the intention is to fork. How does that work if the code has
> just been taken, rather than donated to the ASF through a software grant by
> the copyright holder(s)?
>
> > CERN license category?
> > ----------------------
> >
> > Key: LEGAL-66
> > URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-66
> > Project: Legal Discuss
> > Issue Type: Question
> > Reporter: Benson Margulies
> >
> > If OK, do we also add an ASL notice?
> > // Copyright (c) 1999 CERN - European Organization for Nuclear Research.
> > // Permission to use, copy, modify, distribute and sell this software and
> > // its documentation for any purpose is hereby granted without fee,
> > // provided that the above copyright notice appear in all copies and that
> > // both that copyright notice and this permission notice appear in
> > // supporting documentation. CERN makes no representations about the
> > // suitability of this software for any purpose. It is provided "as is"
> > // without expressed or implied warranty.
>
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[jira] Commented: (LEGAL-66) CERN license category?
Posted by "Henri Yandell (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-66?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=12786725#action_12786725 ]
Henri Yandell commented on LEGAL-66:
------------------------------------
Text looks fine. I don't recognize the exact license but it's made up of elements of MIT/ISC. Definitely Category A imo.
---
On Niall's question:
In terms of forking rather than using code, I think for any Category A license that is fine provided the license is adhered to. Generally that means the common sense items of not removing the copyright header. If you pull a function out of a file, take its header too etc.
If we are forking another category A project, then I would expect our modifications to be under the Apache License, 2.0. So put a LICENSE, NOTICE in there, add the Category A license to the LICENSE file and the copyright information to the NOTICE file. Do not remove the 3rd party copyright information from the original file unless we get a CLA/software 'grant'.
Generally it's preferred to remain on the 3rd party product and give the code back to them from yourself as an individual using whatever process they require; but definitely understood that there are times that won't/can't happen.
---
Category B licenses on the other hand are so placed because any change to them is going to have to be under that Category B license. Modifying is not verboten, but for community reasons we want to examine each use case individually (as we have a general direction of producing software under AL 2.0, and not some other license). No concern however if an Apache committer contributes bugfixes/enhancements they've created back to the original project - that's between them and the project.
> CERN license category?
> ----------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-66
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-66
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Benson Margulies
>
> If OK, do we also add an ASL notice?
> // Copyright (c) 1999 CERN - European Organization for Nuclear Research.
> // Permission to use, copy, modify, distribute and sell this software and
> // its documentation for any purpose is hereby granted without fee,
> // provided that the above copyright notice appear in all copies and that
> // both that copyright notice and this permission notice appear in
> // supporting documentation. CERN makes no representations about the
> // suitability of this software for any purpose. It is provided "as is"
> // without expressed or implied warranty.
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[jira] Updated: (LEGAL-66) CERN license category?
Posted by "Niall Pemberton (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-66?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:all-tabpanel ]
Niall Pemberton updated LEGAL-66:
---------------------------------
Comment: was deleted
(was: Theres a discussion on dev@commons here related to Colt which is under this license:
* http://markmail.org/message/bdxdoq75lk6bwq3a
Mahout has already copied the Colt source code into their svn repository
* https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/MAHOUT-165
* http://svn.apache.org/viewvc?view=revision&revision=883365
This is a slightly different discussion than the usual "can we ship this library with our code" - since AIUI Benson's intention is to fork the code, as Mahout has done. Assuming that the license is considered OK, what I've always been unclear on is what the ASF's position on forking a codebase when the author(s) haven't expressly donated the code thru' an ICLA/CCLA. How can we do any due dilligence in that scenario. Of course the original question of is the license OK needs to be answered first.)
> CERN license category?
> ----------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-66
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-66
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Benson Margulies
>
> If OK, do we also add an ASL notice?
> // Copyright (c) 1999 CERN - European Organization for Nuclear Research.
> // Permission to use, copy, modify, distribute and sell this software and
> // its documentation for any purpose is hereby granted without fee,
> // provided that the above copyright notice appear in all copies and that
> // both that copyright notice and this permission notice appear in
> // supporting documentation. CERN makes no representations about the
> // suitability of this software for any purpose. It is provided "as is"
> // without expressed or implied warranty.
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[jira] Commented: (LEGAL-66) CERN license category?
Posted by "Henri Yandell (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-66?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=12792826#action_12792826 ]
Henri Yandell commented on LEGAL-66:
------------------------------------
Proposed item for resolved.html:
"* Qn: When incorporating category A licensed works in the source code of an Apache project, or forking a category A licensed work as an Apache project, should we seek a software grant/CLA or continue to use the original source under the original license?
* Ans: Generally speaking the direction of the 'software grant'<link> or the CLA<link> are preferred. This simplifies things for our users, allowing us to lessen the license requirements that may apply to them. The following best practices should be considered in situations like these:
* Strongly favour software grants/CLA when the copyright holder(s) contribute substantial code.
* Prefer contributing fixes back to other projects instead of forking.
* Don't bureaucratize ourselves and block forking for category A, but don't rule out the project moving to Apache or agreeing to a grant/CLA.
* We will consider forking/modifying of category B works on an exception basis (discuss with Legal Affairs committee)."
> CERN license category?
> ----------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-66
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-66
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Benson Margulies
>
> If OK, do we also add an ASL notice?
> // Copyright (c) 1999 CERN - European Organization for Nuclear Research.
> // Permission to use, copy, modify, distribute and sell this software and
> // its documentation for any purpose is hereby granted without fee,
> // provided that the above copyright notice appear in all copies and that
> // both that copyright notice and this permission notice appear in
> // supporting documentation. CERN makes no representations about the
> // suitability of this software for any purpose. It is provided "as is"
> // without expressed or implied warranty.
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[jira] Commented: (LEGAL-66) CERN license category?
Posted by "Benson Margulies (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-66?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=12792841#action_12792841 ]
Benson Margulies commented on LEGAL-66:
---------------------------------------
Just to close the loop, it turned out that Mahout had already imported all the code I cared about. I'm working on the code in their territory, and I'll check with them as to whether they made an effort to get a grant.
> CERN license category?
> ----------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-66
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-66
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Benson Margulies
>
> If OK, do we also add an ASL notice?
> // Copyright (c) 1999 CERN - European Organization for Nuclear Research.
> // Permission to use, copy, modify, distribute and sell this software and
> // its documentation for any purpose is hereby granted without fee,
> // provided that the above copyright notice appear in all copies and that
> // both that copyright notice and this permission notice appear in
> // supporting documentation. CERN makes no representations about the
> // suitability of this software for any purpose. It is provided "as is"
> // without expressed or implied warranty.
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[jira] Commented: (LEGAL-66) CERN license category?
Posted by "Niall Pemberton (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-66?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=12786734#action_12786734 ]
Niall Pemberton commented on LEGAL-66:
--------------------------------------
How about I put this a different way.
What happens if someone copies someone elses code thats under a license we would not be happy with and replaces their copyright/license info with an AL 2.0 license and then publishes If we had got a software grant, then we could at least show that we did some due dilligence by getting the person who represents themselves as the owner to sign a grant. When we just take the code, then I guess we're just hoping that its all OK.
> CERN license category?
> ----------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-66
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-66
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Benson Margulies
>
> If OK, do we also add an ASL notice?
> // Copyright (c) 1999 CERN - European Organization for Nuclear Research.
> // Permission to use, copy, modify, distribute and sell this software and
> // its documentation for any purpose is hereby granted without fee,
> // provided that the above copyright notice appear in all copies and that
> // both that copyright notice and this permission notice appear in
> // supporting documentation. CERN makes no representations about the
> // suitability of this software for any purpose. It is provided "as is"
> // without expressed or implied warranty.
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[jira] Commented: (LEGAL-66) CERN license category?
Posted by "Niall Pemberton (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-66?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=12786720#action_12786720 ]
Niall Pemberton commented on LEGAL-66:
--------------------------------------
Theres a discussion about bringing in the Colt code to commons that is under that license here:
* http://markmail.org/message/ut5ftprsaiq4a7ak
As that thread indicates, Hadoop has already forked the code, brining it into their repository:
* https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/MAHOUT-165
* http://svn.apache.org/viewvc?view=revision&revision=883365
Obviously the initial question about whether the license is acceptable needs to be addressed first. Assuming that its OK though, this is different from the normal "can we ship a libaray under this license with our code?" question, since the intention is to fork. How does that work if the code has just been taken, rather than donated to the ASF through a software grant by the copyright holder(s)?
> CERN license category?
> ----------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-66
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-66
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Benson Margulies
>
> If OK, do we also add an ASL notice?
> // Copyright (c) 1999 CERN - European Organization for Nuclear Research.
> // Permission to use, copy, modify, distribute and sell this software and
> // its documentation for any purpose is hereby granted without fee,
> // provided that the above copyright notice appear in all copies and that
> // both that copyright notice and this permission notice appear in
> // supporting documentation. CERN makes no representations about the
> // suitability of this software for any purpose. It is provided "as is"
> // without expressed or implied warranty.
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[jira] Commented: (LEGAL-66) CERN license category?
Posted by "Benson Margulies (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-66?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=12789257#action_12789257 ]
Benson Margulies commented on LEGAL-66:
---------------------------------------
I confess that the fact that Colt hasn't been changed since 1999 discouraged me from bothering, but I'm willing to fire off email and see.
> CERN license category?
> ----------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-66
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-66
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Benson Margulies
>
> If OK, do we also add an ASL notice?
> // Copyright (c) 1999 CERN - European Organization for Nuclear Research.
> // Permission to use, copy, modify, distribute and sell this software and
> // its documentation for any purpose is hereby granted without fee,
> // provided that the above copyright notice appear in all copies and that
> // both that copyright notice and this permission notice appear in
> // supporting documentation. CERN makes no representations about the
> // suitability of this software for any purpose. It is provided "as is"
> // without expressed or implied warranty.
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[jira] Commented: (LEGAL-66) CERN license category?
Posted by "Henri Yandell (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-66?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=12786868#action_12786868 ]
Henri Yandell commented on LEGAL-66:
------------------------------------
Replying to the 10:35pm comment (and very much my opinion):
The software grant (which isn't a grant but a license to us) is a better fit to the AL 2.0 than other category A licenses may be. We may have a category A license whose attribution clauses run in a different dimension to ours and make things painful (insisting that the attribution be in a UI popup for example). It also provides in section 2 a small additional statement that the author can license the code to us (specifically us rather than license it to people in general) and that they have to let us know if this becomes in doubt.
So the grant is desirable - especially when getting code that has come from a company rather than an individual.
Other smaller perks:
* Allows us to move the code to AL 3.0 someday providing we don't conflict with the grant's scope of license.
* Simplifies things as we don't list software grants in LICENSE/NOTICE. We can treat this as 'our' code.
Replying to the 11:08 comment (imo):
Abstract hypotheticals are always fun :) If we find out that source in our product is not under the license we understood it to be, we deal with it accordingly. Everything is risk management. The more well known a product, the less likely the entire product will have an issue (though one file may). The less well known a product (say because it's coming out of a closed development environment of a commercial entity) the more likely there might be something big. I would consider the former to have the lesser cost if anything shows up as I'd expect things to be pretty reasonable around a single file. All hypothetical and vague. Ymmv.
Summarizing with simple advisories:
* Favour software grants/CLA when the copyright holder(s) contribute substantial code.
* Prefer contributing fixes back to other projects instead of forking.
* Don't bureaucratize ourselves and block forking for category A.
* Allow forking/modifying of category B on an exception basis.
> CERN license category?
> ----------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-66
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-66
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Benson Margulies
>
> If OK, do we also add an ASL notice?
> // Copyright (c) 1999 CERN - European Organization for Nuclear Research.
> // Permission to use, copy, modify, distribute and sell this software and
> // its documentation for any purpose is hereby granted without fee,
> // provided that the above copyright notice appear in all copies and that
> // both that copyright notice and this permission notice appear in
> // supporting documentation. CERN makes no representations about the
> // suitability of this software for any purpose. It is provided "as is"
> // without expressed or implied warranty.
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[jira] Commented: (LEGAL-66) CERN license category?
Posted by "Benson Margulies (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-66?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=12786732#action_12786732 ]
Benson Margulies commented on LEGAL-66:
---------------------------------------
Henri,
Thanks so much. I understand the procedure, and I can set to work.
--benson
> CERN license category?
> ----------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-66
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-66
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Benson Margulies
>
> If OK, do we also add an ASL notice?
> // Copyright (c) 1999 CERN - European Organization for Nuclear Research.
> // Permission to use, copy, modify, distribute and sell this software and
> // its documentation for any purpose is hereby granted without fee,
> // provided that the above copyright notice appear in all copies and that
> // both that copyright notice and this permission notice appear in
> // supporting documentation. CERN makes no representations about the
> // suitability of this software for any purpose. It is provided "as is"
> // without expressed or implied warranty.
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[jira] Commented: (LEGAL-66) CERN license category?
Posted by "Niall Pemberton (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-66?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=12786719#action_12786719 ]
Niall Pemberton commented on LEGAL-66:
--------------------------------------
Theres a discussion on dev@commons here related to Colt which is under this license:
* http://markmail.org/message/bdxdoq75lk6bwq3a
Mahout has already copied the Colt source code into their svn repository
* https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/MAHOUT-165
* http://svn.apache.org/viewvc?view=revision&revision=883365
This is a slightly different discussion than the usual "can we ship this library with our code" - since AIUI Benson's intention is to fork the code, as Mahout has done. Assuming that the license is considered OK, what I've always been unclear on is what the ASF's position on forking a codebase when the author(s) haven't expressly donated the code thru' an ICLA/CCLA. How can we do any due dilligence in that scenario. Of course the original question of is the license OK needs to be answered first.
> CERN license category?
> ----------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-66
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-66
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Benson Margulies
>
> If OK, do we also add an ASL notice?
> // Copyright (c) 1999 CERN - European Organization for Nuclear Research.
> // Permission to use, copy, modify, distribute and sell this software and
> // its documentation for any purpose is hereby granted without fee,
> // provided that the above copyright notice appear in all copies and that
> // both that copyright notice and this permission notice appear in
> // supporting documentation. CERN makes no representations about the
> // suitability of this software for any purpose. It is provided "as is"
> // without expressed or implied warranty.
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[jira] Commented: (LEGAL-66) CERN license category?
Posted by "Niall Pemberton (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-66?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=12789254#action_12789254 ]
Niall Pemberton commented on LEGAL-66:
--------------------------------------
Thanks Henri for your replies - that makes sense. Would be good to have this as an official position rather than just yours and documented somewhere.
In this case then, the first step should be to see if the original author(s) will give a grant for the code - since that is the preferred option. I guess the question then is has any effort been made to do this - either by Benson or Hadoop?
> CERN license category?
> ----------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-66
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-66
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Benson Margulies
>
> If OK, do we also add an ASL notice?
> // Copyright (c) 1999 CERN - European Organization for Nuclear Research.
> // Permission to use, copy, modify, distribute and sell this software and
> // its documentation for any purpose is hereby granted without fee,
> // provided that the above copyright notice appear in all copies and that
> // both that copyright notice and this permission notice appear in
> // supporting documentation. CERN makes no representations about the
> // suitability of this software for any purpose. It is provided "as is"
> // without expressed or implied warranty.
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[jira] Commented: (LEGAL-66) CERN license category?
Posted by "Niall Pemberton (JIRA)" <ji...@apache.org>.
[ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-66?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:comment-tabpanel&focusedCommentId=12786727#action_12786727 ]
Niall Pemberton commented on LEGAL-66:
--------------------------------------
The thing that puzzles me then, is why do we bother getting projects that enter the incubator to do a software grant?
For example agimatec-validation[1] is hosted on google code and is under the AL 2.0. It's probably going to be put forward as a proposal for incubation. The company that developed it (agimatec) has already filed a software grant to the ASF for the code. I'm sure thats a requirement for incubation, but if we can just take the code then why bother with the Software Grants in that scenario at all?
[1] http://code.google.com/p/agimatec-validation/
> CERN license category?
> ----------------------
>
> Key: LEGAL-66
> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-66
> Project: Legal Discuss
> Issue Type: Question
> Reporter: Benson Margulies
>
> If OK, do we also add an ASL notice?
> // Copyright (c) 1999 CERN - European Organization for Nuclear Research.
> // Permission to use, copy, modify, distribute and sell this software and
> // its documentation for any purpose is hereby granted without fee,
> // provided that the above copyright notice appear in all copies and that
> // both that copyright notice and this permission notice appear in
> // supporting documentation. CERN makes no representations about the
> // suitability of this software for any purpose. It is provided "as is"
> // without expressed or implied warranty.
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