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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by David O'Hallaron <dr...@cs.cmu.edu> on 2008/07/10 18:00:17 UTC
[PROPOSAL] Tashi
This is a proposal to enter the incubator.
See http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/TashiProposal for the most
up-to-date version.
We're looking forward to comments from the community.
Thanks!
Dave
--
-- David O'Hallaron,
-- Director, Intel Research Pittsburgh
-- Assoc Prof of CS and ECE, Carnegie Mellon University
-- http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~droh
---cut--
= Tashi Proposal =
A proposal to the Apache Software Foundation Incubator PMC by
David O'Hallaron^*+^, Michael Kozuch^*^, Michael Ryan^*^, Steven
Schlosser^*^, Jim Cipar^+^, Greg Ganger^+^, Garth Gibson^+^, Julio
Lopez^+^, Michael Strouken^+^, Wittawat Tantisiriroj^+^, Doug
Cutting^#^, Jay Kistler^#^, Thomas Kwan^#^
^*^Intel Research Pittsburgh, ^+^Carnegie Mellon University, ^#^Yahoo!
July 10, 2008
== 1. Abstract ==
Tashi is a cluster management system for cloud computing on Big Data.
== 2. Proposal ==
The Tashi project aims to build a software infrastructure for cloud
computing on massive internet-scale datasets (what we call ''Big
Data''). The idea is to build a cluster management system that enables
the Big Data that are stored in a cluster/data center to be accessed,
shared, manipulated, and computed on by remote users in a convenient,
efficient, and safe manner. The system aims to provide the following
basic capabilities:
(a) ''On-demand provisioning of storage and compute resources.'' Users
request a number of compute nodes, which can be either virtual or
physical machines, and a set of disk images to boot up on the nodes.
In response they receive their own persistent logical cluster of
compute and storage nodes, which they can then manage and use.
(b) ''Extensible end-to-end system management.'' Tashi will define
open non-proprietary interfaces for management tasks such as
observation, inference, planning, and actuation. This will keep the
system vendor-neutral and allow different research and development
groups to plug in different implementations of different management
modules.
(c) ''Cooperative storage and compute management.'' The system will
define new non-proprietary interfaces and methods that will allow
compute and storage management to work together in concert.
(d) ''Flexible storage models.'' The system will support a range of
different storage models, such as network-attached storage, per-node
storage, and hybrids, to allow developers, researchers, and large
scale cluster/data center operators to experiment with different kinds
of file systems.
(e) ''Flexible machine models.'' The system will support different
machine models. In particular, it will be VMM-agnostic, able to run
different virtual machine monitors such as KVM and Xen. Also, in order
to address the cluster squatting problem (when clusters are balkanized
by users who reserve and hold nodes for their exclusive use) the
system will support a novel bi-model booting capability, in which
virtual machine and physical machine instances can boot from the same
disk image.
== 3. Rationale and Approach ==
Digital media, pervasive sensing, web authoring, mobile computing,
scientific and medical instruments, physical simulations, and virtual
worlds are all delivering vast new datasets relating to every aspect
of our lives. A growing fraction of this Big Data is going unused or
being underexploited due to the overwhelming scale of the data
involved. Effective sharing, understanding, and use of this new
wealth of raw information poses one of the great challenges for the
new century.
In order to compute on this emerging Big Data, many research and
development groups are purchasing their own racks of compute and
storage servers. The goal of the Tashi project is to develop a layer
of utility software that turns these raw racks of servers into easily
managed cloud computers that will allow remote users to share and
explore their Big Data.
To our knowledge there are no open source projects addressing cluster
management for Big Data applications. We need a project such as Tashi
for a number of reasons: (1) No cloud computing cluster management
systems have tackled the problem of having both compute and storage
management working together in concert, which we believe will be
necessary to support Big Data. (2) We need non-proprietary interfaces
for cloud computing, and open source is the way to develop these. For
example, Google's new App Engine and Amazon's web services require
people to build to proprietary API's, so that their applications are
no longer vendor neutral, but are tied to a particular service
provider. (3) We need an extensible system that can serve as a
platform to stimulate research in cluster management for cloud
computing.
The Tashi system is targeted at two (not always distinct) communities:
(1) As a production system for organizations who want to offer medium
to large scale clusters to their users. For example, many companies
and university departments are purchasing such clusters, and a system
like Tashi would help them provide their users with access to the
cycles and storage in the clusters.
(2) As an extensible research platform for distributed systems researchers.
The approach for the project is to build on existing cluster
management work pioneered by projects such as Usher (UCSD), Cluster on
Demand (Duke), and EC2/S3 (Amazon), and then develop the new
capabilities that will be required to support Big Data cloud
computing.
== 4. Need for a Community Effort ==
A number of events at Yahoo, Carnegie Mellon, and Intel Research
Pittsburgh motivated the development of Tashi and convinced us to work
together in the context of an open-source community:
(a) In 2006 the Parallel Data Lab (PDL) at Carnegie Mellon built a
cluster of 400 nodes from industry donations, with a goal of creating
a "Data Center Observatory" that would allow systems researchers to
study and monitor applications running on the cluster. This dream has
been slow to materialize because of the cost and complexity of
supporting and managing multiple applications and systems groups.
(b) In Fall 2007, Yahoo began offering access to their M45 research
cluster to researchers at Carnegie Mellon, and in order to support M45
as well as their own internal production clusters, began to develop
some cloud computing infrastructure on their own.
(c) In Fall 2007, Intel Research Pittsburgh purchased a moderate-sized
100-node cluster and made it available to applications groups at
Carnegie Mellon working on various Big Data applications such as
computational photography, machine translation, automatic speech
recognition, and event detection in spatio-temporal video streams.
Provisioning and scheduling the cluster in the face of so many
different application demands has proven to be difficult.
The difficulties of managing and provisioning these different clusters
convinced us that the problem was too big for any one of us to solve
completely on our own, and that we needed to band together create a
open-source community effort focused on developing a single software
system.
Another important reason to develop an open-source community around
Tashi is that we need non-proprietary vendor-neutral APIs for the
emerging area of cloud computing, and open source is the best way to
achieve that.
== 5. Known Risks ==
''Commitment to future development.'' The risk of the developers
abandoning the project is small, mainly because they all own and
manage moderate to large scale clusters, and desperately need
something like Tashi to provision and manage those clusters. We also
need a system like Tashi to serve as an extensible platform for our
research.
''Experience with open source.'' Yahoo has had a significant and
positive experience with the Apache Software Foundation (ASF) and
Hadoop. While Intel and Carnegie Mellon have developed some non-ASF
style open source projects in the past (e.g., Internet Suspend/Resume,
OpenDHT, and Open``Diamond), they have no experience with ASF-style
open source communities. However, they hope to benefit from Yahoo's
considerable experience in this area.
''Diversity of developer community.'' The initial code base for Tashi
was developed by a single research programmer, Michael Ryan, at Intel
Research Pittsburgh. An important reason for putting Tashi in the
incubator is to expand the set of developers to include programmers
from Carnegie Mellon and Yahoo, initially, and later, hopefully, from
other groups such as Usher at UCSD, cluster-on-demand from Duke
University, and the RAD Lab at Berkeley.
''Relationship to other Apache projects.'' There are no Apache
projects such as Tashi that focus on systems support for cloud
domputing. However, the Tashi project is closely related to
Hadoop/HDFS. The VM-based provisioning of Tashi will subsume the now
deprecated sub-clustering functionality of Hadoop-on-demand. The Tashi
prototype uses HDFS to host the cluster boot images. Also, we expect
that many Tashi logical clusters will run Hadoop jobs.
''Reasons that Tashi is an ASF project.'' There are three main reasons
for developing Tashi through Apache rather than, say, Source``Forge.
(1) Our Yahoo partner has had a very positive experience with the
Hadoop project. (2) We recognize the need to build a strong developer
community, and Apache is centered around building such communities.
(3) The ASF also offers substantial legal oversight that makes it
attractive for cross-organizational collaborative efforts such as
Tashi. With Source``Forge, for example, you have few guarantee about
the title of the code. Thus, people can easily post code they don't
own, and/or change the license terms of other open source code that
they include in their projects. So users of code from Source``Forge
must be wary. On the other hand, Apache vets all contributions,
keeping signed documents from every committer on file, etc.
== 6. Related Work ==
A small sampling of some closely related work:
[1] M. Mc``Nett, D. Gupta, A. Bahdat, G. Voelker, "Usher: An
Extensible Framework for Managing Clusters of Virtual Machines",
Proceedings of the 21st Large Installation System Administration
Conference (LISA 07), 2007.
[2] D. Irwin, J. Chase, L. Grit, A. Yumerefendi, D. Becker, "Sharing
Networked Resources with Brokered Leases", Usenix, 2006.
[3] J. Chase, D. Irwin, L. Grit, J. Moore, S. Sprenkle, "Dynamic
Virtual Clusters in a Grid Site Manager", HPDC, 2003.
[4] S. Garfinkel, "An Evaluation of Amazon's Grid Computing Services:
EC2, S3, and SQS", Tech Report TR-08-07, School for Engineering and
Applied Sciences, Harvard University, 2007.
[5] Red``Hat oVirt System, http://ovirt.org, 2008
== 7. Source ==
We have working code, a pre-alpha proof-of-concept prototype that was
developed by Michael Ryan at Intel Research Pittsburgh. The prototype
is currently running on the 100-node cluster there. We will enter the
incubator with clean code, developed entirely by Michael Ryan, that is
unencumbered by any licensing issues.
== 8. Required Resources ==
(a) Proposed Mailing lists:
* tashi-private (with moderated subscriptions)
* tashi-dev
* tashi-commits
* tashi-user
(b) Subversion directory
* http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/tashi
(c) Issue tracking:
* Tashi will use JIRA for bug tracking.
== 9. Initial Committers ==
Initially, we plan to start with one committer each from Carnegie
Mellon and Intel Research, with a Yahoo committer to be determined
later:
* Michael Stroucken (mxs@cmu.edu)
* Michael Ryan (michael.p.ryan@intel.com)
== 10. Sponsors ==
* ''Champion:'' Doug Cutting (cutting@apache.org)
* ''Sponsoring entity:'' Apache Incubator PMC
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tashi
Posted by David O'Hallaron <dr...@cs.cmu.edu>.
Matthieu,
Thanks very much. I'll add you as a proposed mentor on the wiki proposal.
http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/TashiProposal
Dave
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 3:00 PM, Matthieu Riou <ma...@offthelip.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 6:55 AM, David O'Hallaron <dr...@cs.cmu.edu> wrote:
>
>> Matthieu,
>>
>> > * The sponsoring entity is the Incubator so I'm guessing you're shooting
>> > for graduating as a TLP. What kind of interactions do you foresee with
>> > Hadoop for example?
>>
>> We talked with Doug Cutting about whether to shoot for a TLP or a
>> subproject under Hadoop. We decided ultimately to go the TLP route
>> because Tashi and Hadoop are at different levels in the stack.
>> However, we see Hadoop as one of the important applications running on
>> Tashi virtual clusters, so the two projects are quite complementary.
>>
>> > * IIC Tashi is only about management, not about the underlying
>> > storage/computing technology. Is that correct? And if so which ones do
>> you
>> > plan to integrate with?
>>
>> Yes, that's correct. We plan to integrate with the major VMMs, such as
>> Xen, Linux KVM and VMWare. For storage, we're looking at integrating
>> with HDFS, pVFS and later pNFS when it becomes more mature.An
>> important goal is to provide the hooks and interfaces that allow any
>> DFS and VMM vendor to integrate with the system.
>>
>> > * I can't help asking for more technical details. What's the
>> > implementation language for your POC code? What are the non-proprietary
>> > interfaces you're thinking of?
>>
>> The POC code is a couple of thousand lines of original Python code.
>> Major components are cluster manager (cm), which runs on one of the
>> cluster nodes, a node manager (nm), which runs on each of the other
>> physical cluster nodes, a simple db on the cluster manager for
>> configuration data, and some client utilities.
>>
>> We're really thinking hard about interfaces now, but don't have clear
>> definitions yet. The kinds of things wer are thinking about are
>> interfaces between the client and cm and cm and nm for manipulating
>> starting, starting, and migrating vms, interfaces for some kind of
>> event/messaging system for monitoring and reporting system state to
>> the cm and client, interfaces between the cm/nm and storage system to
>> allow the cm to do storage-aware scheduling of vms, interfaces to
>> power management and system management hardware features, and possibly
>> interfaces for federating different Tashi clusters.
>>
>
>
> Okay, sounds good to me, thanks for the clarifications.
>
> Also if you need another mentor, you can count me in.
>
> Cheers,
> Matthieu
>
>
>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> --
>> -- David O'Hallaron
>> -- Director, Intel Research Pittsburgh
>> -- Assoc Prof of CS and ECE, Carnegie Mellon University
>> -- http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~droh <http://www.cs.cmu.edu/%7Edroh>
>>
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>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>
--
-- David O'Hallaron
-- Director, Intel Research Pittsburgh
-- Assoc Prof of CS and ECE, Carnegie Mellon University
-- http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~droh
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tashi
Posted by Matthieu Riou <ma...@offthelip.org>.
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 6:55 AM, David O'Hallaron <dr...@cs.cmu.edu> wrote:
> Matthieu,
>
> > * The sponsoring entity is the Incubator so I'm guessing you're shooting
> > for graduating as a TLP. What kind of interactions do you foresee with
> > Hadoop for example?
>
> We talked with Doug Cutting about whether to shoot for a TLP or a
> subproject under Hadoop. We decided ultimately to go the TLP route
> because Tashi and Hadoop are at different levels in the stack.
> However, we see Hadoop as one of the important applications running on
> Tashi virtual clusters, so the two projects are quite complementary.
>
> > * IIC Tashi is only about management, not about the underlying
> > storage/computing technology. Is that correct? And if so which ones do
> you
> > plan to integrate with?
>
> Yes, that's correct. We plan to integrate with the major VMMs, such as
> Xen, Linux KVM and VMWare. For storage, we're looking at integrating
> with HDFS, pVFS and later pNFS when it becomes more mature.An
> important goal is to provide the hooks and interfaces that allow any
> DFS and VMM vendor to integrate with the system.
>
> > * I can't help asking for more technical details. What's the
> > implementation language for your POC code? What are the non-proprietary
> > interfaces you're thinking of?
>
> The POC code is a couple of thousand lines of original Python code.
> Major components are cluster manager (cm), which runs on one of the
> cluster nodes, a node manager (nm), which runs on each of the other
> physical cluster nodes, a simple db on the cluster manager for
> configuration data, and some client utilities.
>
> We're really thinking hard about interfaces now, but don't have clear
> definitions yet. The kinds of things wer are thinking about are
> interfaces between the client and cm and cm and nm for manipulating
> starting, starting, and migrating vms, interfaces for some kind of
> event/messaging system for monitoring and reporting system state to
> the cm and client, interfaces between the cm/nm and storage system to
> allow the cm to do storage-aware scheduling of vms, interfaces to
> power management and system management hardware features, and possibly
> interfaces for federating different Tashi clusters.
>
Okay, sounds good to me, thanks for the clarifications.
Also if you need another mentor, you can count me in.
Cheers,
Matthieu
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dave
>
> --
> -- David O'Hallaron
> -- Director, Intel Research Pittsburgh
> -- Assoc Prof of CS and ECE, Carnegie Mellon University
> -- http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~droh <http://www.cs.cmu.edu/%7Edroh>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: [PROPOSAL] Tashi
Posted by David O'Hallaron <dr...@cs.cmu.edu>.
Matthieu,
> * The sponsoring entity is the Incubator so I'm guessing you're shooting
> for graduating as a TLP. What kind of interactions do you foresee with
> Hadoop for example?
We talked with Doug Cutting about whether to shoot for a TLP or a
subproject under Hadoop. We decided ultimately to go the TLP route
because Tashi and Hadoop are at different levels in the stack.
However, we see Hadoop as one of the important applications running on
Tashi virtual clusters, so the two projects are quite complementary.
> * IIC Tashi is only about management, not about the underlying
> storage/computing technology. Is that correct? And if so which ones do you
> plan to integrate with?
Yes, that's correct. We plan to integrate with the major VMMs, such as
Xen, Linux KVM and VMWare. For storage, we're looking at integrating
with HDFS, pVFS and later pNFS when it becomes more mature.An
important goal is to provide the hooks and interfaces that allow any
DFS and VMM vendor to integrate with the system.
> * I can't help asking for more technical details. What's the
> implementation language for your POC code? What are the non-proprietary
> interfaces you're thinking of?
The POC code is a couple of thousand lines of original Python code.
Major components are cluster manager (cm), which runs on one of the
cluster nodes, a node manager (nm), which runs on each of the other
physical cluster nodes, a simple db on the cluster manager for
configuration data, and some client utilities.
We're really thinking hard about interfaces now, but don't have clear
definitions yet. The kinds of things wer are thinking about are
interfaces between the client and cm and cm and nm for manipulating
starting, starting, and migrating vms, interfaces for some kind of
event/messaging system for monitoring and reporting system state to
the cm and client, interfaces between the cm/nm and storage system to
allow the cm to do storage-aware scheduling of vms, interfaces to
power management and system management hardware features, and possibly
interfaces for federating different Tashi clusters.
Thanks,
Dave
--
-- David O'Hallaron
-- Director, Intel Research Pittsburgh
-- Assoc Prof of CS and ECE, Carnegie Mellon University
-- http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~droh
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tashi
Posted by Matthieu Riou <ma...@offthelip.org>.
Hi,
I've reviewed the proposal as well, sounds pretty interesting. I have a
couple of additional questions:
* The sponsoring entity is the Incubator so I'm guessing you're shooting
for graduating as a TLP. What kind of interactions do you foresee with
Hadoop for example?
* IIC Tashi is only about management, not about the underlying
storage/computing technology. Is that correct? And if so which ones do you
plan to integrate with?
* I can't help asking for more technical details. What's the
implementation language for your POC code? What are the non-proprietary
interfaces you're thinking of?
Thanks,
Matthieu
On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 2:20 PM, David O'Hallaron <dr...@cs.cmu.edu> wrote:
> Noel,
>
> I've fixed the wording on the wiki text to clear up the initial committers:
>
> We've been talking with the storage group at HP, haven't approached
> the others yet, but would certainly welcome them.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Dave
> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/TashiProposal
>
> *******
> David,
>
> I just reviewed http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/TashiProposal.
> Interesting. Has anyone been in touch with VMware, XenSource, Google,
> Amazon, et al to invite them to participate?
>
> With respect to "Initially, we plan to start with one committer each from
> Carnegie Mellon and Intel Research, with a Yahoo committer to be determined
> later", that's awkwardly phrased. It appears to imply a corporate
> representative doing commits for "hidden" people, something that we
> consider
> to be an anti-pattern. Whomever is to be actively involved in development
> should be on the committer list. If it is just a community of just The Two
> Michaels, fine, but the wording should be rephrased.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
>
> --
> -- David O'Hallaron
> -- Director, Intel Research Pittsburgh
> -- Assoc Prof of CS and ECE, Carnegie Mellon University
> -- http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~droh <http://www.cs.cmu.edu/%7Edroh>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: [PROPOSAL] Tashi
Posted by David O'Hallaron <dr...@cs.cmu.edu>.
Noel,
I've fixed the wording on the wiki text to clear up the initial committers:
We've been talking with the storage group at HP, haven't approached
the others yet, but would certainly welcome them.
Thanks!
Dave
http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/TashiProposal
*******
David,
I just reviewed http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/TashiProposal.
Interesting. Has anyone been in touch with VMware, XenSource, Google,
Amazon, et al to invite them to participate?
With respect to "Initially, we plan to start with one committer each from
Carnegie Mellon and Intel Research, with a Yahoo committer to be determined
later", that's awkwardly phrased. It appears to imply a corporate
representative doing commits for "hidden" people, something that we consider
to be an anti-pattern. Whomever is to be actively involved in development
should be on the committer list. If it is just a community of just The Two
Michaels, fine, but the wording should be rephrased.
--- Noel
--
-- David O'Hallaron
-- Director, Intel Research Pittsburgh
-- Assoc Prof of CS and ECE, Carnegie Mellon University
-- http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~droh
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tashi
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Thursday 24 July 2008 05:23, William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> In other words, I'll vote -1 on any Proposal for non-person entities
> X, Y, and Z to form an incubator podling, and I know several other PMC
> members who will do likewise.
I disagree. IMHO, wording in the proposal is irrelevant. If they have known
this and written it differently, without any material change behind the
words, what is the difference?
Now, I think that Incubation is all about proving that there indeed is a
healthy community behind the project, and will be one of the major graduation
criteria, but I don't see why proposals with more experienced authors are
given green light and others are booted.
> This looks like a very interesting technology,
For me, this is an entry criteria,
> collaboration by actual persons A, B, and C (who happen to work for
> X, Y, and Z)
... and this would be the graduation criteria.
Cheers
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
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RE: [PROPOSAL] Tashi
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Doug Cutting wrote:
> There's no conspiracy here to steal Apacheness. Rather, Yahoo!, Intel
> and CMU would like to collaborate on open source software. Intel and
> CMU have a prototype, and Yahoo! is interested in helping to develop
> this further. All three believe that other parties will also be
> interested in this software. Apache is a good home for collaborative,
> open-source software projects, no?
Correct, and I also expect that there should be interest from a variety of
other entities.
We do want the individuals listed, not companies, but by the same token, I
will remind some of the commentors that we do want to have some idea of
affiliation.
> Several are managers that contributed to the proposal. They control
> budgets that will pay contributors. Should they remove their names?
IMO, yes. They are not Committers.
--- Noel
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RE: [PROPOSAL] Tashi
Posted by "Ryan, Michael P" <mi...@intel.com>.
Hello,
I've also been closely following the messages exchanged about the Tashi project proposal and I too, like Michael Stroucken, would like to respond to them.
I'm the other initial committer listed on the project proposal, Michael Ryan. I am a software engineer at Intel and I have my own motivations for working on Tashi, as well as the blessing of my employer.
Some of the pieces of software I write at Intel (scientific apps, performance studies, hardware simulations, etc.) are used on a cluster we have built at our site in Pittsburgh. Since we are a small site, I have ended up doing much of the cluster management myself. Part of this management has included rolling our own cluster management software that uses a bunch PXE boot options, a database, and a bunch of poorly written scripts. As the cluster has grown, however, it has turned into a true multi-user cluster and I am consistently surprised at the new and unique ways users find to break things in the cluster. For me, this project is about finding a way to manage this resource. It's about taking our current ad-hoc cluster management to the next level by involving others with similar problems/interests.
It is true that many of the other names listed on the proposal are researchers and are looking to get research publications out of this. However, the two initial committers have a vested interest in seeing a functional and maintained piece of software that will be useful for them. In all honesty, I'd like to see Tashi working so that I can spend less time being a cluster admin and more time being a software engineer.
- Michael Ryan
-----Original Message-----
From: William A. Rowe, Jr. [mailto:wrowe@rowe-clan.net]
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 5:23 PM
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tashi
Doug Cutting wrote:
>
> There's no conspiracy here to steal Apacheness. Rather, Yahoo!, Intel
> and CMU would like to collaborate on open source software. Intel and
> CMU have a prototype, and Yahoo! is interested in helping to develop
> this further. All three believe that other parties will also be
> interested in this software. Apache is a good home for collaborative,
> open-source software projects, no?
Here's the gist of the issue, and your email highlights it perfectly.
Yahoo!, Intel, CMU etc have no standing at the ASF. The ASF does not
recognize collaborative "corporate" development; the ASF recognizes
collaborative development by physical persons, not other legal constructs
or amalgamation.
In other words, I'll vote -1 on any Proposal for non-person entities
X, Y, and Z to form an incubator podling, and I know several other PMC
members who will do likewise.
This looks like a very interesting technology, and when proposed as a
collaboration by actual persons A, B, and C (who happen to work for
X, Y, and Z) we will have something to discuss.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tashi
Posted by Doug Cutting <cu...@apache.org>.
William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> This looks like a very interesting technology, and when proposed as a
> collaboration by actual persons A, B, and C (who happen to work for
> X, Y, and Z) we will have something to discuss.
Great, because that's what I think we have. It so happens that persons
D, E and F also helped write up the proposal, but they won't be writing
the code, so they're not listed in the committer section.
Doug
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tashi
Posted by Jason van Zyl <ja...@maven.org>.
On 23-Jul-08, at 6:12 PM, Niall Pemberton wrote:
> I really don't see what the problem is here, there are two named
> committers in the proposal. Whatever the interests of the companies
> they work for, Tashi will have to create a healthy community to
> graduate and I don't think corporate backing should be used as a
> reason to deny entry in the first place. Also its a *good thing* IMO
> that the proposal is open about the three companies that are prepared
> to fund work and I would hate to see that rewarded with a -1, since it
> may prompt others to be less open in the future.
>
Right on. Why does it matter if it's committed individuals or
committed organizations? It will always be a mixture, and that's a
good thing. It's fallacy to think that every project can be the ideal
of a diverse set of committed individuals who will remain eternally
devoted to a project. Maybe that happens sometimes, but organizations
can also help make sustainable technologies as well, and is more
likely to be the case these days for better or worse. At least they
are honest, and that matters more then anything I think.
Thanks,
Jason
----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder, Apache Maven
jason at sonatype dot com
----------------------------------------------------------
What matters is not ideas, but the people who have them. Good people
can fix bad ideas, but good ideas can't save bad people.
-- Paul Graham
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tashi
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 3:12 PM, Niall Pemberton
<ni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I really don't see what the problem is here, there are two named
> committers in the proposal. Whatever the interests of the companies
> they work for, Tashi will have to create a healthy community to
> graduate and I don't think corporate backing should be used as a
> reason to deny entry in the first place. Also its a *good thing* IMO
> that the proposal is open about the three companies that are prepared
> to fund work and I would hate to see that rewarded with a -1, since it
> may prompt others to be less open in the future.
+1. -- justin
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tashi
Posted by Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 10:23 PM, William A. Rowe, Jr.
<wr...@rowe-clan.net> wrote:
> Doug Cutting wrote:
>>
>> There's no conspiracy here to steal Apacheness. Rather, Yahoo!, Intel and
>> CMU would like to collaborate on open source software. Intel and CMU have a
>> prototype, and Yahoo! is interested in helping to develop this further. All
>> three believe that other parties will also be interested in this software.
>> Apache is a good home for collaborative, open-source software projects, no?
>
> Here's the gist of the issue, and your email highlights it perfectly.
>
> Yahoo!, Intel, CMU etc have no standing at the ASF. The ASF does not
> recognize collaborative "corporate" development; the ASF recognizes
> collaborative development by physical persons, not other legal constructs
> or amalgamation.
>
> In other words, I'll vote -1 on any Proposal for non-person entities
> X, Y, and Z to form an incubator podling, and I know several other PMC
> members who will do likewise.
>
> This looks like a very interesting technology, and when proposed as a
> collaboration by actual persons A, B, and C (who happen to work for
> X, Y, and Z) we will have something to discuss.
I really don't see what the problem is here, there are two named
committers in the proposal. Whatever the interests of the companies
they work for, Tashi will have to create a healthy community to
graduate and I don't think corporate backing should be used as a
reason to deny entry in the first place. Also its a *good thing* IMO
that the proposal is open about the three companies that are prepared
to fund work and I would hate to see that rewarded with a -1, since it
may prompt others to be less open in the future.
Niall
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tashi
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
Doug Cutting wrote:
>
> There's no conspiracy here to steal Apacheness. Rather, Yahoo!, Intel
> and CMU would like to collaborate on open source software. Intel and
> CMU have a prototype, and Yahoo! is interested in helping to develop
> this further. All three believe that other parties will also be
> interested in this software. Apache is a good home for collaborative,
> open-source software projects, no?
Here's the gist of the issue, and your email highlights it perfectly.
Yahoo!, Intel, CMU etc have no standing at the ASF. The ASF does not
recognize collaborative "corporate" development; the ASF recognizes
collaborative development by physical persons, not other legal constructs
or amalgamation.
In other words, I'll vote -1 on any Proposal for non-person entities
X, Y, and Z to form an incubator podling, and I know several other PMC
members who will do likewise.
This looks like a very interesting technology, and when proposed as a
collaboration by actual persons A, B, and C (who happen to work for
X, Y, and Z) we will have something to discuss.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tashi
Posted by Doug Cutting <cu...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Doug Cutting wrote:
>
>> I would expect that Tashi would use Xen command-line programs, not link
>> directly to Xen's C API's.
>
> Why?
Mostly because I don't know what I'm talking about, and I don't think we
need to resolve this at this point on this list and I'm trying to make a
glib answer to calm folks down a bit.
Doug
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RE: [PROPOSAL] Tashi
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Doug Cutting wrote:
> I would expect that Tashi would use Xen command-line programs, not link
> directly to Xen's C API's.
Why? Personally, I hope that you are wrong. I would expect Tashi to define
a vendor neutral layer to which Xen, VMware, KVM, etc., implementations
could be written.
--- Noel
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tashi
Posted by Doug Cutting <cu...@apache.org>.
Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
> I noticed that you cut out the part about interfacing with
> Apache-incompatible code. As this project will be surrounded on all
> sides by non-Apache license able code, do you have a plan on how to
> amend this and how does the current demo code handle this?
I would expect that Tashi would use Xen command-line programs, not link
directly to Xen's C API's. And, for software like Tashi, whose primary
role is to manage Xen-based clusters, Xen is clearly a "system
requirement", and is acceptable under Apache's 3rd party license policy.
This seems to me like an issue to be handled in detail during
incubation. If we cannot find a workable solution, then Tashi would not
graduate, but at this point I don't see obvious IP roadblocks.
Doug
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tashi
Posted by Henning Schmiedehausen <hp...@intermeta.de>.
On Wed, 2008-07-23 at 11:10 -0700, Doug Cutting wrote:
> Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
[...]
Hi Doug,
I noticed that you cut out the part about interfacing with
Apache-incompatible code. As this project will be surrounded on all
sides by non-Apache license able code, do you have a plan on how to
amend this and how does the current demo code handle this?
Ciao
Henning
--
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91054 Buckenhof, Germany -- +49 9131 506540 | Apache Java Software
Open Source Consulting, Development, Design |
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tashi
Posted by Doug Cutting <cu...@apache.org>.
Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
> - Are the proposed committers, people "assigned to work on the project"
> or are they genuinely interested in this software.
Those are not necessarily disjoint sets. Folks who are "assigned" are
frequently also "genuinely interested", and vice versa.
> IAW, will they stick around or leave as soon as they are reassigned to
> other projects or their grants run out?
Folks who are "genuinely interested" often lose interest over time, and
folks who are "assigned" are often long-term contributors who even
change employers and are "re-assigned" to work on the same project,
i.e., are hired for their familiarity and involvement with the project.
Nearly everyone on Hadoop from Y! was initially assigned. Most have
found it a plum assignment. A few have moved on, some to Hadoop-related
jobs at other companies.
> The wording for the Yahoo! "slot" sounded to me like there has been a
> decision at management level that CMU, Intel and Yahoo! want to do some
> work on that subject and they like to have the soft, warm glow of
> Apacheness on their effort for a (PR?) reason.
There's no conspiracy here to steal Apacheness. Rather, Yahoo!, Intel
and CMU would like to collaborate on open source software. Intel and
CMU have a prototype, and Yahoo! is interested in helping to develop
this further. All three believe that other parties will also be
interested in this software. Apache is a good home for collaborative,
open-source software projects, no?
Also, if Tashi doesn't garner a diverse, active set of contributors in
the incubator, it will die a slow death with little harm done.
> So there is an engineer
> from each group assigned to "work on this" until further notice. From
> thirteen names on the proposal, only two will be committers? I know
> about Doug, who are the other ten?
Several are managers that contributed to the proposal. They control
budgets that will pay contributors. Should they remove their names?
> That is not exactly the kind of project that we want. The whole Tashi
> proposal sounds to me like an abstract to a scientific paper, which has
> the tendency that as soon as the paper is done, the interest in the
> subject goes down.
That is certainly not my understanding. The intent as I understand it
is to build cluster management software that will actually be used to
manage clusters. Yahoo!, my employer, has many clusters and seeks
better software to manage them.
Doug
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RE: [PROPOSAL] Tashi
Posted by "Ryan, Michael P" <mi...@intel.com>.
Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-07-24 at 19:22 -0400, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > Now that raises an interesting question ... if we define our own vendor
> > neutral, Apache licensed, interface definition, are we allowed to host the
> > source for our own implementation of it that is intended to support a GPL
> > licensed work? I have my view on that, but it is an interesting issue.
>
> That question has IMHO already been answered, as we host the reference
> implementations to various JSRs for which other-licensed implementations
> exist. So yes, we can host this, if we define the layer or have the
> layer definition under Apache license.
>
> To be clear: I don't want to be a road block here, I just like to have
> these questions discussed before incubation begins; nothing is worse
> than having Tashi in incubation for a few months, having them started a
> community at Apache and then finding out that there are showstoppers
> that makes it impossible to continue here. Better get this resolved
> before we start.
I would like to provide some concrete information for this discussion.
The current implementation defines an interface for manipulating VMs. Using
this interface, we've written two VM controllers, one for Xen using command
line programs and one for Qemu/KVM using its monitor. We did this because
we were concerned about potential licensing issues that may arise if we were
to use a C API (with a dynamic library).
Am I to understand from this thread that it would somehow be okay to use
Xen's C API? If so, can someone be more explicit about what the limitations
are?
- Michael Ryan
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tashi
Posted by Doug Cutting <cu...@apache.org>.
Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
> To be clear: I don't want to be a road block here, I just like to have
> these questions discussed before incubation begins; nothing is worse
> than having Tashi in incubation for a few months, having them started a
> community at Apache and then finding out that there are showstoppers
> that makes it impossible to continue here. Better get this resolved
> before we start.
Tashi's mentors are well aware of Apache's 3rd party licensing
guidelines, as described at:
http://www.apache.org/legal/3party.html
Doug
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RE: [PROPOSAL] Tashi
Posted by Henning Schmiedehausen <he...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 2008-07-24 at 19:22 -0400, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
>
> > XEN e.g. is GPLv2 licensed and you can not host any code at Apache that
> > needs to be linked with XEN.
>
> Now that raises an interesting question ... if we define our own vendor
> neutral, Apache licensed, interface definition, are we allowed to host the
> source for our own implementation of it that is intended to support a GPL
> licensed work? I have my view on that, but it is an interesting issue.
That question has IMHO already been answered, as we host the reference
implementations to various JSRs for which other-licensed implementations
exist. So yes, we can host this, if we define the layer or have the
layer definition under Apache license.
To be clear: I don't want to be a road block here, I just like to have
these questions discussed before incubation begins; nothing is worse
than having Tashi in incubation for a few months, having them started a
community at Apache and then finding out that there are showstoppers
that makes it impossible to continue here. Better get this resolved
before we start.
Ciao
Henning
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RE: [PROPOSAL] Tashi
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
> The wording for the Yahoo! "slot" sounded to me like there has been a
> decision at management level that CMU, Intel and Yahoo! want to do some
> work on that subject [...]
I believe that we've made it clear that there are no corporate slots, and
that the language needed reworking.
> And finally: from your proposal and your concept, it is very clear to
> me that you *will* be cutting very very close to proprietary open source
> (i.e. GPL licensed) code and you will need to interface with such code.
> XEN e.g. is GPLv2 licensed and you can not host any code at Apache that
> needs to be linked with XEN.
Now that raises an interesting question ... if we define our own vendor
neutral, Apache licensed, interface definition, are we allowed to host the
source for our own implementation of it that is intended to support a GPL
licensed work? I have my view on that, but it is an interesting issue.
--- Noel
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tashi
Posted by Henning Schmiedehausen <he...@apache.org>.
Hi,
a number of questions:
- Are the proposed committers, people "assigned to work on the project"
or are they genuinely interested in this software.
IAW, will they stick around or leave as soon as they are reassigned to
other projects or their grants run out?
The wording for the Yahoo! "slot" sounded to me like there has been a
decision at management level that CMU, Intel and Yahoo! want to do some
work on that subject and they like to have the soft, warm glow of
Apacheness on their effort for a (PR?) reason. So there is an engineer
from each group assigned to "work on this" until further notice. From
thirteen names on the proposal, only two will be committers? I know
about Doug, who are the other ten?
That is not exactly the kind of project that we want. The whole Tashi
proposal sounds to me like an abstract to a scientific paper, which has
the tendency that as soon as the paper is done, the interest in the
subject goes down.
- The sentence "A number of events at Yahoo, Carnegie Mellon, and Intel
Research Pittsburgh motivated the development of Tashi and convinced us
to work together in the context of an open-source community" makes me
wonder, what these events were and why specifically the Apache Incubator
was chosen.
- And finally: from your proposal and your concept, it is very clear to
me that you *will* be cutting very very close to proprietary open source
(i.e. GPL licensed) code and you will need to interface with such code.
Are you aware of our strict rules about non-Apache licensed code and how
will you amend this? Has your current code (which is not visible
anywhere) hard dependencies on Apache-incompatible software that you
will need to change/rewrite? XEN e.g. is GPLv2 licensed and you can not
host any code at Apache that needs to be linked with XEN.
Ciao
Henning
On Wed, 2008-07-23 at 10:36 -0400, David O'Hallaron wrote:
> No worries. I've removed the entry on the wiki version of the proposal
> at http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/TashiProposal. It now reads
> simply:
>
> Initially, there will be one committer each from Carnegie Mellon and
> Intel Research:
> * Michael Stroucken (mxs@cmu.edu)
> * Michael Ryan (michael.p.ryan@intel.com)
>
>
>
>
> Dave
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 8:36 PM, William A. Rowe, Jr.
> <wr...@rowe-clan.net> wrote:
> > Doug Cutting wrote:
> >>
> >> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> >>>
> >>> With respect to "Initially, we plan to start with one committer each from
> >>> Carnegie Mellon and Intel Research, with a Yahoo committer to be
> >>> determined
> >>> later", that's awkwardly phrased. It appears to imply a corporate
> >>> representative doing commits for "hidden" people, something that we
> >>> consider
> >>> to be an anti-pattern.
> >>
> >> That is not the intent. The intent is for Yahoo! to assign someone to
> >> work on this project as a direct contributor. But that person has not yet
> >> been identified.
> >>
> >>> Whomever is to be actively involved in development
> >>> should be on the committer list. If it is just a community of just The
> >>> Two
> >>> Michaels, fine, but the wording should be rephrased.
> >>
> >> +1 If Y! does not name someone soon, then that entry should be removed. A
> >> committer from Y! can always be added later, based on merit.
> >
> > No; the entry should be removed now.
> >
> > Yahoo the Company cannot place a reservation on a place at the table for
> > an unnamed body. This is not how the ASF works. Nor are committers
> > expressed as delegates of the institutions the work for/study at.
> > This places a cloud over the acceptance of this particular project, and
> > I would encourage everyone to be sure their mentors/champions review the
> > text before posting a proposal for incubation..
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> >
>
>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tashi
Posted by David O'Hallaron <dr...@cs.cmu.edu>.
No worries. I've removed the entry on the wiki version of the proposal
at http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/TashiProposal. It now reads
simply:
Initially, there will be one committer each from Carnegie Mellon and
Intel Research:
* Michael Stroucken (mxs@cmu.edu)
* Michael Ryan (michael.p.ryan@intel.com)
Dave
On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 8:36 PM, William A. Rowe, Jr.
<wr...@rowe-clan.net> wrote:
> Doug Cutting wrote:
>>
>> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>>
>>> With respect to "Initially, we plan to start with one committer each from
>>> Carnegie Mellon and Intel Research, with a Yahoo committer to be
>>> determined
>>> later", that's awkwardly phrased. It appears to imply a corporate
>>> representative doing commits for "hidden" people, something that we
>>> consider
>>> to be an anti-pattern.
>>
>> That is not the intent. The intent is for Yahoo! to assign someone to
>> work on this project as a direct contributor. But that person has not yet
>> been identified.
>>
>>> Whomever is to be actively involved in development
>>> should be on the committer list. If it is just a community of just The
>>> Two
>>> Michaels, fine, but the wording should be rephrased.
>>
>> +1 If Y! does not name someone soon, then that entry should be removed. A
>> committer from Y! can always be added later, based on merit.
>
> No; the entry should be removed now.
>
> Yahoo the Company cannot place a reservation on a place at the table for
> an unnamed body. This is not how the ASF works. Nor are committers
> expressed as delegates of the institutions the work for/study at.
> This places a cloud over the acceptance of this particular project, and
> I would encourage everyone to be sure their mentors/champions review the
> text before posting a proposal for incubation..
>
> Bill
>
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>
>
--
-- David O'Hallaron
-- Director, Intel Research Pittsburgh
-- Assoc Prof of CS and ECE, Carnegie Mellon University
-- http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~droh
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tashi
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
Doug Cutting wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>> With respect to "Initially, we plan to start with one committer each from
>> Carnegie Mellon and Intel Research, with a Yahoo committer to be
>> determined
>> later", that's awkwardly phrased. It appears to imply a corporate
>> representative doing commits for "hidden" people, something that we
>> consider
>> to be an anti-pattern.
>
> That is not the intent. The intent is for Yahoo! to assign someone to
> work on this project as a direct contributor. But that person has not
> yet been identified.
>
>> Whomever is to be actively involved in development
>> should be on the committer list. If it is just a community of just
>> The Two
>> Michaels, fine, but the wording should be rephrased.
>
> +1 If Y! does not name someone soon, then that entry should be removed.
> A committer from Y! can always be added later, based on merit.
No; the entry should be removed now.
Yahoo the Company cannot place a reservation on a place at the table for
an unnamed body. This is not how the ASF works. Nor are committers
expressed as delegates of the institutions the work for/study at.
This places a cloud over the acceptance of this particular project, and
I would encourage everyone to be sure their mentors/champions review the
text before posting a proposal for incubation..
Bill
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tashi
Posted by Doug Cutting <cu...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> With respect to "Initially, we plan to start with one committer each from
> Carnegie Mellon and Intel Research, with a Yahoo committer to be determined
> later", that's awkwardly phrased. It appears to imply a corporate
> representative doing commits for "hidden" people, something that we consider
> to be an anti-pattern.
That is not the intent. The intent is for Yahoo! to assign someone to
work on this project as a direct contributor. But that person has not
yet been identified.
> Whomever is to be actively involved in development
> should be on the committer list. If it is just a community of just The Two
> Michaels, fine, but the wording should be rephrased.
+1 If Y! does not name someone soon, then that entry should be removed.
A committer from Y! can always be added later, based on merit.
Doug
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RE: [PROPOSAL] Tashi
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
David,
I just reviewed http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/TashiProposal.
Interesting. Has anyone been in touch with VMware, XenSource, Google,
Amazon, et al to invite them to participate?
With respect to "Initially, we plan to start with one committer each from
Carnegie Mellon and Intel Research, with a Yahoo committer to be determined
later", that's awkwardly phrased. It appears to imply a corporate
representative doing commits for "hidden" people, something that we consider
to be an anti-pattern. Whomever is to be actively involved in development
should be on the committer list. If it is just a community of just The Two
Michaels, fine, but the wording should be rephrased.
--- Noel
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