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Posted to user-cs@ibatis.apache.org by Larry Meadors <la...@gmail.com> on 2005/06/24 14:03:26 UTC
Note on WIKI useage
Please, please, please do NOT post support questions on the WIKI
unless you are adding them to the FAQ *WITH AN ANSWER*.
The WIKI is NOT a support forum.
Any unanswered questions on the WIKI will be deleted.
Larry
Re: Note on WIKI useage
Posted by Larry Meadors <la...@gmail.com>.
I guess I incorrectly assumed that the line in a bold red font on the
WIKI that reads "This is NOT a support forum. If you need help with a
problem, please use the mailing lists." with a link to the mailing
lists was pretty darn clear.
Perhaps we need to add that to the edit page as well?
Larry
On 6/24/05, Rahul Singh ( Anant ) <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> People are going to use the tools the way THEY think they should.
> Unless the site pushes them to do it another way, they will continue
> to post questions on the WIKI.
Re: Note on WIKI useage
Posted by Nathan Maves <Na...@Sun.COM>.
Rahul,
I agree with your statement about the manual. It is just a bit
frustrating answering the same question over and over again. This
alias dose not seem to have this problem. I think that it is because
of the work that has gone into the manual and the wiki.
I was reading your first email again and in the section where you ask
about a web submission for help. One reason is that we agreed that
the email forum should NOT be anonymous and an email submission form
is easily fooled by most.
As for a web based view of the alias have you checked out
http://www.mail-archive.com/user-java@ibatis.apache.org/
Nathan
On Jun 24, 2005, at 9:07 AM, Rahul Singh ( Anant ) wrote:
> Nathan,
>
> If the site had it correct, then there wouldn't be an issue of
> confused users. "Read the F#$# Manual" is the wrong attitude even if
> you are dealing with developers.
>
> The point is that NO one has it correct, especially with open source
> solutions. Rainbow developers claimed they had it correct with Forums
> and Confluence. However, when a yahoogroup was started.. it seemed
> that people tended to gravitate towards it because it "worked"
>
> I don't think anyone can say "this is the right way" simply because
> usability is a gray area which people do lots and lots of research on.
> (I don't like Nielsen, but he did do a good job with the SUN site..
> and he is ONE expert, which others disagree with)
>
> The way you get a approximation of correctness is if you look at the
> users's goals and try to cater to them rather than pushing them what
> "we" think is right. (See Inmates are running the Asylum by Alan
> Cooper)
>
> Rahul
>
> On 6/24/05, Nathan Maves <Na...@sun.com> wrote:
>
>> Rahul,
>>
>> Like many other open source solutions that I use, this site has it
>> correct. They ask new users to search for their problem in both the
>> Wiki and the mail archives. Of course it would be nice it they read
>> the manual first. If they can not find a solution they are more then
>> welcome to ask it on the alias.
>>
>> Most of the support people only have time to respond to email. If we
>> find that it is a common problem and we have a solution we will post
>> it to the Wiki.
>>
>> Nathan
>>
>> On Jun 24, 2005, at 7:36 AM, Rahul Singh ( Anant ) wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Larry,
>>>
>>> Most people who are using the wiki probably don't use the
>>> Mailinglist
>>> because it is a source of support. Why not just create a simple page
>>> which would let people ask questions from the web, and an email
>>> would
>>> be sent to the lists.
>>>
>>> People need to be either told the purposes of the different support
>>> mechanisms ( for different types of people ) or a better systems
>>> should be used altogether.
>>>
>>> I have been using Yahoogroups to manage groups for ASP.NET and
>>> Rainbow
>>> Portal. Users have a nice web based view of the questions/answers
>>> and
>>> they don't complain.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think what needs to be done is a simpler support page.
>>> Instead of showing multiple options on the front page, why not
>>> make a
>>> page just for support. (http://ibatis.apache.org/help.html) would be
>>> an excellent place to have this. Currently it has all the right
>>> information in exactly the wrong places.
>>>
>>> People are going to use the tools the way THEY think they should.
>>> Unless the site pushes them to do it another way, they will continue
>>> to post questions on the WIKI.
>>>
>>> Rahul
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/24/05, Larry Meadors <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Please, please, please do NOT post support questions on the WIKI
>>>> unless you are adding them to the FAQ *WITH AN ANSWER*.
>>>>
>>>> The WIKI is NOT a support forum.
>>>>
>>>> Any unanswered questions on the WIKI will be deleted.
>>>>
>>>> Larry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Rahul Singh
>>> CEO, Anant
>>> rahul.singh@anant.us
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Rahul Singh
> CEO, Anant
> rahul.singh@anant.us
>
Re: Note on WIKI useage
Posted by "Rahul Singh ( Anant )" <an...@gmail.com>.
Nathan,
If the site had it correct, then there wouldn't be an issue of
confused users. "Read the F#$# Manual" is the wrong attitude even if
you are dealing with developers.
The point is that NO one has it correct, especially with open source
solutions. Rainbow developers claimed they had it correct with Forums
and Confluence. However, when a yahoogroup was started.. it seemed
that people tended to gravitate towards it because it "worked"
I don't think anyone can say "this is the right way" simply because
usability is a gray area which people do lots and lots of research on.
(I don't like Nielsen, but he did do a good job with the SUN site..
and he is ONE expert, which others disagree with)
The way you get a approximation of correctness is if you look at the
users's goals and try to cater to them rather than pushing them what
"we" think is right. (See Inmates are running the Asylum by Alan
Cooper)
Rahul
On 6/24/05, Nathan Maves <Na...@sun.com> wrote:
> Rahul,
>
> Like many other open source solutions that I use, this site has it
> correct. They ask new users to search for their problem in both the
> Wiki and the mail archives. Of course it would be nice it they read
> the manual first. If they can not find a solution they are more then
> welcome to ask it on the alias.
>
> Most of the support people only have time to respond to email. If we
> find that it is a common problem and we have a solution we will post
> it to the Wiki.
>
> Nathan
>
> On Jun 24, 2005, at 7:36 AM, Rahul Singh ( Anant ) wrote:
>
> > Larry,
> >
> > Most people who are using the wiki probably don't use the Mailinglist
> > because it is a source of support. Why not just create a simple page
> > which would let people ask questions from the web, and an email would
> > be sent to the lists.
> >
> > People need to be either told the purposes of the different support
> > mechanisms ( for different types of people ) or a better systems
> > should be used altogether.
> >
> > I have been using Yahoogroups to manage groups for ASP.NET and Rainbow
> > Portal. Users have a nice web based view of the questions/answers and
> > they don't complain.
> >
> >
> > I think what needs to be done is a simpler support page.
> > Instead of showing multiple options on the front page, why not make a
> > page just for support. (http://ibatis.apache.org/help.html) would be
> > an excellent place to have this. Currently it has all the right
> > information in exactly the wrong places.
> >
> > People are going to use the tools the way THEY think they should.
> > Unless the site pushes them to do it another way, they will continue
> > to post questions on the WIKI.
> >
> > Rahul
> >
> >
> > On 6/24/05, Larry Meadors <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Please, please, please do NOT post support questions on the WIKI
> >> unless you are adding them to the FAQ *WITH AN ANSWER*.
> >>
> >> The WIKI is NOT a support forum.
> >>
> >> Any unanswered questions on the WIKI will be deleted.
> >>
> >> Larry
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Rahul Singh
> > CEO, Anant
> > rahul.singh@anant.us
> >
>
>
--
Rahul Singh
CEO, Anant
rahul.singh@anant.us
Re: Note on WIKI useage
Posted by John Fereira <ja...@cornell.edu>.
At 01:32 PM 6/24/2005, you wrote:
>John,
>
>Not sure if you are telling everyone that we do use JIRA or are
>suggesting that we use it.
>
>Either way here is the link to the JIRA
>
>http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/IBATIS
I was speaking of open source project documentation and the use of whatever
issue tracking system (if any) it uses. We've run into the same
documentation issues that are being discussed here on the JA-SIG uPortal
project. In fact, I gave a presentation on uPortal documentation at the
recent uPortal conference that was partially motivated by frequent
occurrences of posts like "I'm have a problem trying to do ....and I
couldn't find anything in the documentation". Invariably the answer often
boils down to "where did you look?" Quite often the problem has been
previously encountered and probably resolved but the resolution might be
documented on the mailing list (how may people search the archives before
answering a question on the email list???), the main web site, on the wiki,
or via comments in the issue tracking system. Most recently we've found
that the use of JIRA is a real good method for documenting resolutions to
problems but it's not always obvious to users of the technology to look
there first. The fact that iBatis is using Jira (as are many other ASF
projects) is certainly (IMHO) one of the reasons that several *are* lauding
the quality of the documentation. The main point of my post was to inform
people that issue tracking systems are a good first stop for looking for
resolutions to problems they are encountering.
Re: Note on WIKI useage
Posted by Nathan Maves <Na...@Sun.COM>.
John,
Not sure if you are telling everyone that we do use JIRA or are
suggesting that we use it.
Either way here is the link to the JIRA
http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/IBATIS
Nathan
On Jun 24, 2005, at 9:14 AM, John Fereira wrote:
> At 10:56 AM 6/24/2005, Nathan Maves wrote:
>
>> Rahul,
>>
>> Like many other open source solutions that I use, this site has it
>> correct. They ask new users to search for their problem in both the
>> Wiki and the mail archives. Of course it would be nice it they read
>> the manual first. If they can not find a solution they are more then
>> welcome to ask it on the alias.
>>
>> Most of the support people only have time to respond to email. If we
>> find that it is a common problem and we have a solution we will post
>> it to the Wiki.
>>
>
> There is actually a third, and perhaps more useful place for users
> to search for information regarding problems they having with an
> open source project. Most of the open source projects that I have
> been involved with (mostly just as a user of the technology) have
> bug/issue tracking systems such as Bugzilla or Jira. The advantage
> of searching such a system is that those that have taken on the
> responsibility for actually fixing issues do monitor the issue
> tracking system and may actually receive email if an issue is
> logged on a component for which they're responsible. The better
> issue tracking systems allow the "assignee" or reporter of a
> problem to include comments, attach a patch file, and at the very
> least describe the resolution. In some cases this might include a
> comment such as "fixed in version 1.3.2", which would be quite
> useful for someone that encountered a problem when using version
> 1.3.1.
>
>
Re: Note on WIKI useage
Posted by John Fereira <ja...@cornell.edu>.
At 10:56 AM 6/24/2005, Nathan Maves wrote:
>Rahul,
>
>Like many other open source solutions that I use, this site has it
>correct. They ask new users to search for their problem in both the
>Wiki and the mail archives. Of course it would be nice it they read
>the manual first. If they can not find a solution they are more then
>welcome to ask it on the alias.
>
>Most of the support people only have time to respond to email. If we
>find that it is a common problem and we have a solution we will post
>it to the Wiki.
There is actually a third, and perhaps more useful place for users to
search for information regarding problems they having with an open source
project. Most of the open source projects that I have been involved with
(mostly just as a user of the technology) have bug/issue tracking systems
such as Bugzilla or Jira. The advantage of searching such a system is that
those that have taken on the responsibility for actually fixing issues do
monitor the issue tracking system and may actually receive email if an
issue is logged on a component for which they're responsible. The better
issue tracking systems allow the "assignee" or reporter of a problem to
include comments, attach a patch file, and at the very least describe the
resolution. In some cases this might include a comment such as "fixed in
version 1.3.2", which would be quite useful for someone that encountered a
problem when using version 1.3.1.
Re: Note on WIKI useage
Posted by Nathan Maves <Na...@Sun.COM>.
Rahul,
Like many other open source solutions that I use, this site has it
correct. They ask new users to search for their problem in both the
Wiki and the mail archives. Of course it would be nice it they read
the manual first. If they can not find a solution they are more then
welcome to ask it on the alias.
Most of the support people only have time to respond to email. If we
find that it is a common problem and we have a solution we will post
it to the Wiki.
Nathan
On Jun 24, 2005, at 7:36 AM, Rahul Singh ( Anant ) wrote:
> Larry,
>
> Most people who are using the wiki probably don't use the Mailinglist
> because it is a source of support. Why not just create a simple page
> which would let people ask questions from the web, and an email would
> be sent to the lists.
>
> People need to be either told the purposes of the different support
> mechanisms ( for different types of people ) or a better systems
> should be used altogether.
>
> I have been using Yahoogroups to manage groups for ASP.NET and Rainbow
> Portal. Users have a nice web based view of the questions/answers and
> they don't complain.
>
>
> I think what needs to be done is a simpler support page.
> Instead of showing multiple options on the front page, why not make a
> page just for support. (http://ibatis.apache.org/help.html) would be
> an excellent place to have this. Currently it has all the right
> information in exactly the wrong places.
>
> People are going to use the tools the way THEY think they should.
> Unless the site pushes them to do it another way, they will continue
> to post questions on the WIKI.
>
> Rahul
>
>
> On 6/24/05, Larry Meadors <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Please, please, please do NOT post support questions on the WIKI
>> unless you are adding them to the FAQ *WITH AN ANSWER*.
>>
>> The WIKI is NOT a support forum.
>>
>> Any unanswered questions on the WIKI will be deleted.
>>
>> Larry
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Rahul Singh
> CEO, Anant
> rahul.singh@anant.us
>
Re: Note on WIKI useage
Posted by "Rahul Singh ( Anant )" <an...@gmail.com>.
Larry,
Most people who are using the wiki probably don't use the Mailinglist
because it is a source of support. Why not just create a simple page
which would let people ask questions from the web, and an email would
be sent to the lists.
People need to be either told the purposes of the different support
mechanisms ( for different types of people ) or a better systems
should be used altogether.
I have been using Yahoogroups to manage groups for ASP.NET and Rainbow
Portal. Users have a nice web based view of the questions/answers and
they don't complain.
I think what needs to be done is a simpler support page.
Instead of showing multiple options on the front page, why not make a
page just for support. (http://ibatis.apache.org/help.html) would be
an excellent place to have this. Currently it has all the right
information in exactly the wrong places.
People are going to use the tools the way THEY think they should.
Unless the site pushes them to do it another way, they will continue
to post questions on the WIKI.
Rahul
On 6/24/05, Larry Meadors <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Please, please, please do NOT post support questions on the WIKI
> unless you are adding them to the FAQ *WITH AN ANSWER*.
>
> The WIKI is NOT a support forum.
>
> Any unanswered questions on the WIKI will be deleted.
>
> Larry
>
--
Rahul Singh
CEO, Anant
rahul.singh@anant.us