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Posted to dev@pivot.apache.org by Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com> on 2010/02/22 23:14:32 UTC
How to move Pivot forward?
Though we have only gotten two responses on the SWT question, it seems as though an SWT port may not be the best way to move Pivot forward. Michael made some great suggestions. What do others think? What can we do to help raise awareness of and interest in Pivot as a viable alternative to other Java-based UI technologies?
Re: How to move Pivot forward?
Posted by Sandro Martini <sa...@gmail.com>.
Hi Greg,
> I have considered this as well. Pivot + Tomcat would be a great combination.
Great, I'm happy of this.
> Maybe you could ping their dev/users lists and run the idea by them?
Yes, I can try to contact someone, and see what happens ... I'll tell
the dev list updated on this.
Bye,
Sandro
Re: How to move Pivot forward?
Posted by Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>.
I have considered this as well. Pivot + Tomcat would be a great combination. Maybe you could ping their dev/users lists and run the idea by them?
On Feb 25, 2010, at 6:55 PM, Sandro Martini wrote:
> Hi to all,
> and speaking on Apache products, what do you think on a Tomcat Console:
> the admin (interesting but complex, requires many things to be
> developed), or the manager (much more simple), or jmx ?
>
> Ok ok, a lot of work, and probably the data is not exported in the
> right way for us, but could be interesting, don't you think ?
> I've read something like this as an experiment with JavaFX, for Glassfish 3.
>
> I don't know if this could be our killer-app ... I haven't understood
> after Glassfish 3, if Tomcat will continue to be developed (as major
> releases after the 6.0.x), someone know it ?
>
>
> Other ideas ?
>
> Bye,
> Sandro
Re: How to move Pivot forward?
Posted by Sandro Martini <sa...@gmail.com>.
Hi to all,
and speaking on Apache products, what do you think on a Tomcat Console:
the admin (interesting but complex, requires many things to be
developed), or the manager (much more simple), or jmx ?
Ok ok, a lot of work, and probably the data is not exported in the
right way for us, but could be interesting, don't you think ?
I've read something like this as an experiment with JavaFX, for Glassfish 3.
I don't know if this could be our killer-app ... I haven't understood
after Glassfish 3, if Tomcat will continue to be developed (as major
releases after the 6.0.x), someone know it ?
Other ideas ?
Bye,
Sandro
Re: How to move Pivot forward?
Posted by Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>.
> ExtJS really took off when Sonatype used it for the Nexus Repository UI.
Yeah, it's too bad they aren't using Pivot since Maven is also an Apache project.
> One I can think of is a JIRA app (we talked about it before). The HTML
> browser on Apache is lame, and so many people use JIRA a successful app
> would get a lot of eyes.
JIRA is a possibility as is Confluence. Just need to find some interested party to work on it (or fund it). :-)
Re: How to move Pivot forward?
Posted by Michael Bushe <mi...@bushe.com>.
I agree with Sandro that Pivot needs to have a killer attraction. Though
Sandro mentioned a killer feature, I think a killer app would be more in
order.
ExtJS really took off when Sonatype used it for the Nexus Repository UI.
JavaFX got press when it was used for the Winter Olympics site.
Karsten's JGoodies got a lot of notice when he made JDiskReport.
Are there any useful apps that can be donated to the community to get
attention?
One I can think of is a JIRA app (we talked about it before). The HTML
browser on Apache is lame, and so many people use JIRA a successful app
would get a lot of eyes.
Michael Bushe
Principal
Bushe Enterprises, Inc.
michael@bushe.com
www.bushe.com
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 7:17 PM, Sandro Martini <sa...@gmail.com>wrote:
> Hi,
> sorry, just post to the other thread ... but here I have some other note.
>
> > Pivot is still showing normal early stage adoption i.e. a trickle of
> interest.
> I know, for example until now (after many months I work on Pivot) I'm
> unable to provide my customers solutions based on Pivot, the feedback
> is always great, all is interesting, good, etc but at the end the
> solution it's always the same: dynamic web pages and in some cases
> some Flash widget (nor Flex, nor Silverlight :-) ), ok could also be a
> market problem where I live (and in my customers), but in many cases I
> think that RIA solutions are still too forward, because also it's
> simpler to find some people to write a jsp/jsf page, but to write a
> really good application a developer is needed.
> And note that we are also paying for the (many) old Java Plugin and
> Swing bugs, but since Java 6 Update 10 many things are really changed
> here.
> So I think that we still need some time for the market (and customer
> minds) to evolve ... and I repeat here (taken from my other post) we
> have to provide some real-world killer feature.
>
>
> > Newbie: "X is very easy to do with toolkit Y"
> > Pivot-guru: "You could implement X on top of component C"
> > Newbie: "That's too hard! Can't you just add it?"
> > Pivot-guru: "Adding that feature doesn't really fit into our
> architecture"
> I agree completely with this, I asked many times for a folder in
> svn/trunk where publish experimental work and discuss/review with
> others (if interested), if not on apache on Google Code or other.
>
>
> Sandro
>
Re: How to move Pivot forward?
Posted by Sandro Martini <sa...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
sorry, just post to the other thread ... but here I have some other note.
> Pivot is still showing normal early stage adoption i.e. a trickle of interest.
I know, for example until now (after many months I work on Pivot) I'm
unable to provide my customers solutions based on Pivot, the feedback
is always great, all is interesting, good, etc but at the end the
solution it's always the same: dynamic web pages and in some cases
some Flash widget (nor Flex, nor Silverlight :-) ), ok could also be a
market problem where I live (and in my customers), but in many cases I
think that RIA solutions are still too forward, because also it's
simpler to find some people to write a jsp/jsf page, but to write a
really good application a developer is needed.
And note that we are also paying for the (many) old Java Plugin and
Swing bugs, but since Java 6 Update 10 many things are really changed
here.
So I think that we still need some time for the market (and customer
minds) to evolve ... and I repeat here (taken from my other post) we
have to provide some real-world killer feature.
> Newbie: "X is very easy to do with toolkit Y"
> Pivot-guru: "You could implement X on top of component C"
> Newbie: "That's too hard! Can't you just add it?"
> Pivot-guru: "Adding that feature doesn't really fit into our architecture"
I agree completely with this, I asked many times for a folder in
svn/trunk where publish experimental work and discuss/review with
others (if interested), if not on apache on Google Code or other.
Sandro
Re: How to move Pivot forward?
Posted by Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>.
This is another reason why a cookbook approach might work well. I envision the cookbook as a collection of examples vs. packaged solutions - lower expectations for what the code will do, and less to maintain.
On Feb 23, 2010, at 8:41 AM, Martijn Dashorst wrote:
> With wicket we have a sf.net project called Wicket Stuff (which was
> already in place before we joined Apache). This is the place where we
> invite anyone from our community to publish their work: components,
> integrations etc. This place was also created to host non-compatible
> code (Hibernate, and other GPL/LGPL/etc libraries).
>
> The Wicket Stuff project is successful in that it attracted a big
> number of contributors, but IMO it failed to get the necessary quality
> due to lack of interest of the same contributors. Many of the projects
> are unsupported and never had a proper release, let alone some
> documentation. I see the Wicket Stuff project as a blessing and a
> curse: a great place to find components and integrations, but also a
> place where things are half finished, and that reflects on the
> original product as well.
>
> The typical behavior we see is that someone commits a first draft of a
> component they've created. They might even hook it up to the standard
> infrastructure (multimodule Maven project). Then they leave. Next
> someone wants to use the project, finds a bug or missing feature,
> commits their solution and moves on. No releases, no finished product,
> and that is IMO problematic in the eyes of folks that want to write
> production ready code: they want releases, changelogs, release notes
> and some evidence that someone is maintaining it.
>
> Be prepared to have to heavily invest in such a second leg if you want
> to use it as an attractor for 'enterprisy developers'.
>
> Martijn
>
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 2:12 PM, Noel Grandin <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> The SwingX project has a nice system where people put their own
>> not-ready-for-platform code into something like
>>
>> /trunk/users-dev/noelgrandin/src/MyWeirdWidget.java
>>
>> Then it becomes visible to everybody and people can comment and improve
>> on each other's code.
>> Quite a lot of stuff ended up making its way into the mainline like that.
>>
>> -- Noel
>>
>> On 2010-02-23 14:29, Todd Volkert wrote:
>>> That's a good point Noel. I actually created
>>> http://code.google.com/p/pivot-contrib/ a couple of weeks ago just to backup
>>> a layout container that I was working on that was too app-specific to be in
>>> the platform. I don't like the idea of putting stuff like that
>>> (app-specific add-ons) in the platform, but there's no legal reason to put
>>> it on Google Code either... it's almost as if we could create a separate
>>> hierarchy in SVN that lived off the trunk and never got released where we
>>> could put stuff like this. Then if newbies wanted widget X, and someone had
>>> built it before in this playground, we could just point the newbie there,
>>> and they could fork it and build it themselves.
>>>
>>> I know Niclas created "skunk" as a sibling to "trunk", but I'm not sure
>>> that's appropriate, as I think it was meant for experimental features that
>>> may be included in the trunk some day...
>>>
>>> In any case, what do others think?
>>> -T
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 3:19 AM, Noel Grandin <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi
>>>>
>>>> Pivot is still showing normal early stage adoption i.e. a trickle of
>>>> interest. These things tend to ramp in bursts, so my counsel would
>>>> simply be to be patient.
>>>>
>>>> I agree on the SWT issue - I don't think porting Pivot to SWT would
>>>> improve adoption. SWT already has JFace, Nebula and various other
>>>> additional widget libraries.
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand, Pivot is a great example of how good Swing could be
>>>> if it was allowed to evolve :-)
>>>>
>>>> I do notice that we're getting various conversations along the lines of
>>>>
>>>> Newbie: "X is very easy to do with toolkit Y"
>>>> Pivot-guru: "You could implement X on top of component C"
>>>> Newbie: "That's too hard! Can't you just add it?"
>>>> Pivot-guru: "Adding that feature doesn't really fit into our architecture"
>>>>
>>>> Which is reasonable, but maybe we should be implementing these features
>>>> in some kind of extras package until we have a good enough idea of how
>>>> to fit the features into the main codebase?
>>>>
>>>> -- Noel
>>>>
>>>> On 2010-02-23 00:14, Greg Brown wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Though we have only gotten two responses on the SWT question, it seems as
>>>>>
>>>> though an SWT port may not be the best way to move Pivot forward. Michael
>>>> made some great suggestions. What do others think? What can we do to help
>>>> raise awareness of and interest in Pivot as a viable alternative to other
>>>> Java-based UI technologies?
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Become a Wicket expert, learn from the best: http://wicketinaction.com
> Apache Wicket 1.4 increases type safety for web applications
> Get it now: http://www.apache.org/dyn/closer.cgi/wicket/1.4.4
Re: How to move Pivot forward?
Posted by Martijn Dashorst <ma...@gmail.com>.
With wicket we have a sf.net project called Wicket Stuff (which was
already in place before we joined Apache). This is the place where we
invite anyone from our community to publish their work: components,
integrations etc. This place was also created to host non-compatible
code (Hibernate, and other GPL/LGPL/etc libraries).
The Wicket Stuff project is successful in that it attracted a big
number of contributors, but IMO it failed to get the necessary quality
due to lack of interest of the same contributors. Many of the projects
are unsupported and never had a proper release, let alone some
documentation. I see the Wicket Stuff project as a blessing and a
curse: a great place to find components and integrations, but also a
place where things are half finished, and that reflects on the
original product as well.
The typical behavior we see is that someone commits a first draft of a
component they've created. They might even hook it up to the standard
infrastructure (multimodule Maven project). Then they leave. Next
someone wants to use the project, finds a bug or missing feature,
commits their solution and moves on. No releases, no finished product,
and that is IMO problematic in the eyes of folks that want to write
production ready code: they want releases, changelogs, release notes
and some evidence that someone is maintaining it.
Be prepared to have to heavily invest in such a second leg if you want
to use it as an attractor for 'enterprisy developers'.
Martijn
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 2:12 PM, Noel Grandin <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The SwingX project has a nice system where people put their own
> not-ready-for-platform code into something like
>
> /trunk/users-dev/noelgrandin/src/MyWeirdWidget.java
>
> Then it becomes visible to everybody and people can comment and improve
> on each other's code.
> Quite a lot of stuff ended up making its way into the mainline like that.
>
> -- Noel
>
> On 2010-02-23 14:29, Todd Volkert wrote:
>> That's a good point Noel. I actually created
>> http://code.google.com/p/pivot-contrib/ a couple of weeks ago just to backup
>> a layout container that I was working on that was too app-specific to be in
>> the platform. I don't like the idea of putting stuff like that
>> (app-specific add-ons) in the platform, but there's no legal reason to put
>> it on Google Code either... it's almost as if we could create a separate
>> hierarchy in SVN that lived off the trunk and never got released where we
>> could put stuff like this. Then if newbies wanted widget X, and someone had
>> built it before in this playground, we could just point the newbie there,
>> and they could fork it and build it themselves.
>>
>> I know Niclas created "skunk" as a sibling to "trunk", but I'm not sure
>> that's appropriate, as I think it was meant for experimental features that
>> may be included in the trunk some day...
>>
>> In any case, what do others think?
>> -T
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 3:19 AM, Noel Grandin <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> Pivot is still showing normal early stage adoption i.e. a trickle of
>>> interest. These things tend to ramp in bursts, so my counsel would
>>> simply be to be patient.
>>>
>>> I agree on the SWT issue - I don't think porting Pivot to SWT would
>>> improve adoption. SWT already has JFace, Nebula and various other
>>> additional widget libraries.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, Pivot is a great example of how good Swing could be
>>> if it was allowed to evolve :-)
>>>
>>> I do notice that we're getting various conversations along the lines of
>>>
>>> Newbie: "X is very easy to do with toolkit Y"
>>> Pivot-guru: "You could implement X on top of component C"
>>> Newbie: "That's too hard! Can't you just add it?"
>>> Pivot-guru: "Adding that feature doesn't really fit into our architecture"
>>>
>>> Which is reasonable, but maybe we should be implementing these features
>>> in some kind of extras package until we have a good enough idea of how
>>> to fit the features into the main codebase?
>>>
>>> -- Noel
>>>
>>> On 2010-02-23 00:14, Greg Brown wrote:
>>>
>>>> Though we have only gotten two responses on the SWT question, it seems as
>>>>
>>> though an SWT port may not be the best way to move Pivot forward. Michael
>>> made some great suggestions. What do others think? What can we do to help
>>> raise awareness of and interest in Pivot as a viable alternative to other
>>> Java-based UI technologies?
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
--
Become a Wicket expert, learn from the best: http://wicketinaction.com
Apache Wicket 1.4 increases type safety for web applications
Get it now: http://www.apache.org/dyn/closer.cgi/wicket/1.4.4
Re: How to move Pivot forward?
Posted by Noel Grandin <no...@gmail.com>.
The SwingX project has a nice system where people put their own
not-ready-for-platform code into something like
/trunk/users-dev/noelgrandin/src/MyWeirdWidget.java
Then it becomes visible to everybody and people can comment and improve
on each other's code.
Quite a lot of stuff ended up making its way into the mainline like that.
-- Noel
On 2010-02-23 14:29, Todd Volkert wrote:
> That's a good point Noel. I actually created
> http://code.google.com/p/pivot-contrib/ a couple of weeks ago just to backup
> a layout container that I was working on that was too app-specific to be in
> the platform. I don't like the idea of putting stuff like that
> (app-specific add-ons) in the platform, but there's no legal reason to put
> it on Google Code either... it's almost as if we could create a separate
> hierarchy in SVN that lived off the trunk and never got released where we
> could put stuff like this. Then if newbies wanted widget X, and someone had
> built it before in this playground, we could just point the newbie there,
> and they could fork it and build it themselves.
>
> I know Niclas created "skunk" as a sibling to "trunk", but I'm not sure
> that's appropriate, as I think it was meant for experimental features that
> may be included in the trunk some day...
>
> In any case, what do others think?
> -T
>
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 3:19 AM, Noel Grandin <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Hi
>>
>> Pivot is still showing normal early stage adoption i.e. a trickle of
>> interest. These things tend to ramp in bursts, so my counsel would
>> simply be to be patient.
>>
>> I agree on the SWT issue - I don't think porting Pivot to SWT would
>> improve adoption. SWT already has JFace, Nebula and various other
>> additional widget libraries.
>>
>> On the other hand, Pivot is a great example of how good Swing could be
>> if it was allowed to evolve :-)
>>
>> I do notice that we're getting various conversations along the lines of
>>
>> Newbie: "X is very easy to do with toolkit Y"
>> Pivot-guru: "You could implement X on top of component C"
>> Newbie: "That's too hard! Can't you just add it?"
>> Pivot-guru: "Adding that feature doesn't really fit into our architecture"
>>
>> Which is reasonable, but maybe we should be implementing these features
>> in some kind of extras package until we have a good enough idea of how
>> to fit the features into the main codebase?
>>
>> -- Noel
>>
>> On 2010-02-23 00:14, Greg Brown wrote:
>>
>>> Though we have only gotten two responses on the SWT question, it seems as
>>>
>> though an SWT port may not be the best way to move Pivot forward. Michael
>> made some great suggestions. What do others think? What can we do to help
>> raise awareness of and interest in Pivot as a viable alternative to other
>> Java-based UI technologies?
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
Re: How to move Pivot forward?
Posted by Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>.
I actually like the idea of making such "add-ons" public, but I think they might be better suited to a "Pivot cookbook" than a repository of custom components. I envision something along the lines of the Pivot tutorial, but a bit more targeted (e.g. "how do I build a combo box?", "how do I write a custom tree node renderer?", etc.). I would want this to be a place where the community can post their own examples in addition to any we might post.
The reason I like this approach is that, in general, these things *are* supported by the platform - we just can't support every possible permutation out of the box. This way, developers can see how such features are actually built, which will help build their understanding of other ways in which the platform can be customized.
To your point about being patient: I agree. But it is difficult. :-) I also don't see any harm in being proactive where we can. So, in my opinion, the more we can do to promote Pivot, the better.
G
On Feb 23, 2010, at 7:29 AM, Todd Volkert wrote:
> That's a good point Noel. I actually created
> http://code.google.com/p/pivot-contrib/ a couple of weeks ago just to backup
> a layout container that I was working on that was too app-specific to be in
> the platform. I don't like the idea of putting stuff like that
> (app-specific add-ons) in the platform, but there's no legal reason to put
> it on Google Code either... it's almost as if we could create a separate
> hierarchy in SVN that lived off the trunk and never got released where we
> could put stuff like this. Then if newbies wanted widget X, and someone had
> built it before in this playground, we could just point the newbie there,
> and they could fork it and build it themselves.
>
> I know Niclas created "skunk" as a sibling to "trunk", but I'm not sure
> that's appropriate, as I think it was meant for experimental features that
> may be included in the trunk some day...
>
> In any case, what do others think?
> -T
>
> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 3:19 AM, Noel Grandin <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> Pivot is still showing normal early stage adoption i.e. a trickle of
>> interest. These things tend to ramp in bursts, so my counsel would
>> simply be to be patient.
>>
>> I agree on the SWT issue - I don't think porting Pivot to SWT would
>> improve adoption. SWT already has JFace, Nebula and various other
>> additional widget libraries.
>>
>> On the other hand, Pivot is a great example of how good Swing could be
>> if it was allowed to evolve :-)
>>
>> I do notice that we're getting various conversations along the lines of
>>
>> Newbie: "X is very easy to do with toolkit Y"
>> Pivot-guru: "You could implement X on top of component C"
>> Newbie: "That's too hard! Can't you just add it?"
>> Pivot-guru: "Adding that feature doesn't really fit into our architecture"
>>
>> Which is reasonable, but maybe we should be implementing these features
>> in some kind of extras package until we have a good enough idea of how
>> to fit the features into the main codebase?
>>
>> -- Noel
>>
>> On 2010-02-23 00:14, Greg Brown wrote:
>>> Though we have only gotten two responses on the SWT question, it seems as
>> though an SWT port may not be the best way to move Pivot forward. Michael
>> made some great suggestions. What do others think? What can we do to help
>> raise awareness of and interest in Pivot as a viable alternative to other
>> Java-based UI technologies?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
Re: How to move Pivot forward?
Posted by Todd Volkert <tv...@gmail.com>.
That's a good point Noel. I actually created
http://code.google.com/p/pivot-contrib/ a couple of weeks ago just to backup
a layout container that I was working on that was too app-specific to be in
the platform. I don't like the idea of putting stuff like that
(app-specific add-ons) in the platform, but there's no legal reason to put
it on Google Code either... it's almost as if we could create a separate
hierarchy in SVN that lived off the trunk and never got released where we
could put stuff like this. Then if newbies wanted widget X, and someone had
built it before in this playground, we could just point the newbie there,
and they could fork it and build it themselves.
I know Niclas created "skunk" as a sibling to "trunk", but I'm not sure
that's appropriate, as I think it was meant for experimental features that
may be included in the trunk some day...
In any case, what do others think?
-T
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 3:19 AM, Noel Grandin <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi
>
> Pivot is still showing normal early stage adoption i.e. a trickle of
> interest. These things tend to ramp in bursts, so my counsel would
> simply be to be patient.
>
> I agree on the SWT issue - I don't think porting Pivot to SWT would
> improve adoption. SWT already has JFace, Nebula and various other
> additional widget libraries.
>
> On the other hand, Pivot is a great example of how good Swing could be
> if it was allowed to evolve :-)
>
> I do notice that we're getting various conversations along the lines of
>
> Newbie: "X is very easy to do with toolkit Y"
> Pivot-guru: "You could implement X on top of component C"
> Newbie: "That's too hard! Can't you just add it?"
> Pivot-guru: "Adding that feature doesn't really fit into our architecture"
>
> Which is reasonable, but maybe we should be implementing these features
> in some kind of extras package until we have a good enough idea of how
> to fit the features into the main codebase?
>
> -- Noel
>
> On 2010-02-23 00:14, Greg Brown wrote:
> > Though we have only gotten two responses on the SWT question, it seems as
> though an SWT port may not be the best way to move Pivot forward. Michael
> made some great suggestions. What do others think? What can we do to help
> raise awareness of and interest in Pivot as a viable alternative to other
> Java-based UI technologies?
> >
> >
>
>
Re: How to move Pivot forward?
Posted by Noel Grandin <no...@gmail.com>.
Hi
Pivot is still showing normal early stage adoption i.e. a trickle of
interest. These things tend to ramp in bursts, so my counsel would
simply be to be patient.
I agree on the SWT issue - I don't think porting Pivot to SWT would
improve adoption. SWT already has JFace, Nebula and various other
additional widget libraries.
On the other hand, Pivot is a great example of how good Swing could be
if it was allowed to evolve :-)
I do notice that we're getting various conversations along the lines of
Newbie: "X is very easy to do with toolkit Y"
Pivot-guru: "You could implement X on top of component C"
Newbie: "That's too hard! Can't you just add it?"
Pivot-guru: "Adding that feature doesn't really fit into our architecture"
Which is reasonable, but maybe we should be implementing these features
in some kind of extras package until we have a good enough idea of how
to fit the features into the main codebase?
-- Noel
On 2010-02-23 00:14, Greg Brown wrote:
> Though we have only gotten two responses on the SWT question, it seems as though an SWT port may not be the best way to move Pivot forward. Michael made some great suggestions. What do others think? What can we do to help raise awareness of and interest in Pivot as a viable alternative to other Java-based UI technologies?
>
>