Re: Wasting Time !

[Andrija Panic <an...@gmail.com>]

Gents - my point of view on the cloudstack and the work arround it is the
folowing:

- Pretty lacking documentation
- Working on new fancy features - instead of making current features work
at all...
 - Few examples:
 -- new vxlan isolation method was introduced some release ago - default
MTU of 1450 is used - which makes need that every VM has lowered MTU
inside, in order to fucntion AT ALL !
 -- KVM full snapshots don't work
 -- GUI needs serious polishing, and I mean serious ! from sorting objects
by name or similar, to some bugs fix etc.
 -- Network throtling on only Public/Internet NIC of VPC/VR
 -- Usage server was HEAVILY broken, last time I got feedback from our
developer who is working on billing (at least ACS 4.3.0)
 -- etc,etc,etc..

I listed here just some of the issues I have reported, which have not been
adresses AT ALL - when I say addressed, that means I did not get even
replies.
(Again, it is not me here not geting replies, but potentially large number
of CS users that would benefit from the issues fixed.)

But we have time obviously to spend replying on Mohammeds provocation (I
say provocations since he is not replying to the thread) - instead of
polishing the product and making basic things work.

Again my 2 cents - just wanted to share my opinion on (un)completeness of
the product.
It's great for private use - but going public and trying to do business
with cloudstack is at the moment very painful - works, but is very painfull
and lacks some basic features.

My opinion is that we need products polished, instead of slamming on the
new fancy features, that nobody will use at the moment.

Again, any cloud product is VERY complex - a great mixture of different
technologies - so I understand it is not meant to be easy to operate and
develop.

Sorry for long post... I do my best to report bugs/imporvements and to make
critics, but other than that - not being adeveloper, can't really help that
much...





 -


On 17 November 2014 16:18, Noel King <no...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi
>
> I also disagree completely with this thread having also checked out and
> installed Cloudstack competitors I found cloudstack probably the easiest
> and stablest to get running.  I come from a programming not infrastructure
> backdrop and as pointed out previously implementing a private cloud is not
> easy, but we managed to setup up for first Cloudstack cluster with 3
> servers in under one day's effort, the documentation provided was
> sufficient and was adequate for us to complete the task.
>
> I agree you with others you going to need to be more informative here on
> your problems as I have always found the community responsive and excellent
> to deal with.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Noel
>
> On 17 November 2014 15:05, Tim Mackey <tm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > From my perspective there are two issues being raised in this thread.
> >
> > 1. The original poster didn't actually ask a question, and despite
> requests
> > for more information, nothing which would allow us to help was
> > forthcoming.  We can't fix that which we don't know to be broken, and as
> > we're all learning and building our respective experience can't hope to
> > mirror that of anyone else.
> >
> > 2. CloudStack is like every piece of software I've ever worked with; it
> has
> > a learning curve.  Cloud in general forces you to rethink your paradigms,
> > and for me building my first CloudStack cloud took six weeks of
> unlearning
> > what I thought "best practice".  Not everything I had to "unlearn" was
> > CloudStack; some was just bad thinking called "best practice".  There's
> > lots of information out there, but a learning curve definitely exists,
> and
> > even today years after that first experience I continue to learn new
> things
> > about CloudStack.
> >
> > To Mohammad, I offer this suggestion.  You've engaged with this
> community,
> > but specifics are lacking.  It isn't reasonable for the community to
> offer
> > assistance without knowing what is troubling you.  Expectations are an
> > important part of that, and we don't know what yours were, only that
> you're
> > unhappy.
> >
> > Sandeep has raised specific issues, and I hope they were captured in
> Jira (
> > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CLOUDSTACK).  If they weren't then
> > there is a very real possibility they won't be addressed until someone
> > either reports it, or decides to directly fix it.  I know I'm guilty of
> not
> > putting Jira reports in, and I suspect I'm not alone.  We all have the
> > power to complain, but we also have the power to help fix an issue by
> > taking a few extra minutes to just report the issue, and reporting on a
> > mailing list doesn't count.
> >
> > Sorry for getting on my soap box, but I figured this thread had a good
> > chance of showing up in some index in the future and that I had an
> > opportunity to give a bit of guidance.  Hopefully I've not overstepped.
> >
> > -tim
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 9:27 AM, sandeep khandekar <
> > cloudstack.sandeep@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I agree with him, it wastes time, but at the same time you are gaining
> > > knowledge.
> > >
> > > If the documentation was done, he would not have faced this many
> > problems.
> > >
> > > Single node setup:
> > > You never told why on restart/shutdown, you loose your secondary
> > > storage(NFS). - May be we need to disable swap. Still I dont know the
> > > answer.
> > >
> > > Multi-node setup
> > > Why I cant view my instance. Everything was installed properly, I
> > connected
> > > to management server, logged in, Ubuntu instance was successfully
> setup,
> > > but I was unable to view it. It showed an error, I forgot the error.
> why?
> > >
> > > Devloper cloudstack
> > > Problems with devcloud in devlopment environment.
> > > devcloud2 never works - then why you mention in your books, links and
> > docs,
> > > why dont you refer to devcloud4 in which many changes are done daily.
> > > Sometimes user gets broken devcloud4, and they get freaked out.
> > >
> > > Its not as simple as Vagrant up and vagrant halt.
> > >
> > > Sorry I learnt a lot, but we should agree with him, as a starter it
> took
> > 9
> > > months still the job is unfinished. Stopped it, because I freaked out,
> > and
> > > I am taking rest, will be back soon.
> > >
> > > Dont think it is waste of time speaking, many people are not speaking
> > > because, they are thinking, in future they may not get the answers for
> > > their queries.
> > >
> > > Cloudstack we love it, but we dont know how to work with it, we are
> > > learining, and we will be masters soon.
> > >
> > > Many people help us here on this group. That is the biggest achievement
> > of
> > > these group, but you dont reveal the real recipe because you may loose
> > > bussiness.
> > >
> > > This are my views and I dont mean to hurt anyone in anyway.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 5:38 PM, Francois Gaudreault <
> > > fgaudreault@cloudops.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > One thing I agree for sure, the thread title is right, that
> discussion
> > is
> > > > starting to be a waste of time :) (although very entertaining)
> > > >
> > > > FG
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 2014-11-17 4:36 AM, sebgoa wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> On Nov 15, 2014, at 8:00 PM, Mohammad Mahdi Raja <
> mraja@shirazu.ac.ir
> > >
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>  Thanks for your answers,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I installed different version on different infrastructure during
> the
> > > >>> time. It is somehow much more unstable that other competitors. Many
> > > >>> non-documented issues and many unpredictable problems. I know that
> we
> > > are
> > > >>> all here to help each others to feel good about it, but I think we
> > are
> > > >>> wasting our times on solving issues instead of doing business !
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Any one disagrees ?
> > > >>>
> > > >>>  Yes, I do, I 100% disagree.
> > > >>
> > > >> Just buy my book and you will be enlightened:
> > > >>
> > > >> http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920034377.do
> > > >>
> > > >> Ps: slighlty sarcastic answer :) enjoy
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>  On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 12:33  PM, Osay Osman Yuuni <oyuuni@gmail.com
> >
> > > >>> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> Hi Mohammed,
> > > >>>> I'd be interested to know why you think Cloudstack is waiting our
> > > >>>> time?  Do
> > > >>>> you have any specific issues that need addressing that you could
> > not?
> > > >>>> By
> > > >>>> Cloudstack who do you actually mean?  The contributors, users,
> > > >>>> governance?
> > > >>>> Unless you're able to tell us what makes you think Cloudstack is
> > > wasting
> > > >>>> our times I'm afraid I don't see how we can agree with you.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Osay
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On 10 November 2014 10:54, Vihar <vi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>  Was your questions not answered? Or you have issues with setting
> up
> > > >>>>> cloudstack?
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Regards
> > > >>>>> Vihar K
> > > >>>>> On Nov 10, 2014 2:19 PM, "Erik Weber" <te...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>  On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 9:25 AM, Mohammad Mahdi Raja <
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> mraja@shirazu.ac.ir>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>  ​Dear All,
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Does every one have the sense that CloudStack is wasting our
> > times
> > > ?
> > > >>>>>>> Unfortunately I think so.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>  It's probably easier to answer your feelings if you describe a
> > bit
> > > >>>>>> more
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> why
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> you're feeling that way.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Why is CloudStack wasting your time? How can it be improved to
> not
> > > >>>>>> waste
> > > >>>>>> your time? etc.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> --
> > > >>>>>> Erik
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Francois Gaudreault
> > > > Gestionnaire de Produit | Product Manager - Cloud Platform & Services
> > > > t:514-629-6775
> > > >
> > > > CloudOps Votre partenaire infonuagique | Cloud Solutions Experts
> > > > 420 rue Guy | Montreal | Quebec | H3J 1S6
> > > > w: cloudops.com | tw: @CloudOps_
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > SANDEEP KHANDEKAR
> > > Assistant Professor
> > > Department of Computer science and engineering
> > > Sreenidhi Institute of science and Technology
> > > Hyderabad
> > >
> >
>



-- 

Andrija Panić

Re: Wasting Time !

[Ron Wheeler <rw...@artifact-software.com>]

+1 on documentation.
Previous version was simply wrong and could have never been tested.
Bug report had been open for a year at that point.

I have not tried the latest version.
Are all of the documentation bugs fixed and tested?

Ron

On 17/11/2014 3:07 PM, Andrija Panic wrote:
> Gents - my point of view on the cloudstack and the work arround it is the
> folowing:
>
> - Pretty lacking documentation
> - Working on new fancy features - instead of making current features work
> at all...
>   - Few examples:
>   -- new vxlan isolation method was introduced some release ago - default
> MTU of 1450 is used - which makes need that every VM has lowered MTU
> inside, in order to fucntion AT ALL !
>   -- KVM full snapshots don't work
>   -- GUI needs serious polishing, and I mean serious ! from sorting objects
> by name or similar, to some bugs fix etc.
>   -- Network throtling on only Public/Internet NIC of VPC/VR
>   -- Usage server was HEAVILY broken, last time I got feedback from our
> developer who is working on billing (at least ACS 4.3.0)
>   -- etc,etc,etc..
>
> I listed here just some of the issues I have reported, which have not been
> adresses AT ALL - when I say addressed, that means I did not get even
> replies.
> (Again, it is not me here not geting replies, but potentially large number
> of CS users that would benefit from the issues fixed.)
>
> But we have time obviously to spend replying on Mohammeds provocation (I
> say provocations since he is not replying to the thread) - instead of
> polishing the product and making basic things work.
>
> Again my 2 cents - just wanted to share my opinion on (un)completeness of
> the product.
> It's great for private use - but going public and trying to do business
> with cloudstack is at the moment very painful - works, but is very painfull
> and lacks some basic features.
>
> My opinion is that we need products polished, instead of slamming on the
> new fancy features, that nobody will use at the moment.
>
> Again, any cloud product is VERY complex - a great mixture of different
> technologies - so I understand it is not meant to be easy to operate and
> develop.
>
> Sorry for long post... I do my best to report bugs/imporvements and to make
> critics, but other than that - not being adeveloper, can't really help that
> much...
>
>
>
>
>
>   -
>
>
> On 17 November 2014 16:18, Noel King <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> I also disagree completely with this thread having also checked out and
>> installed Cloudstack competitors I found cloudstack probably the easiest
>> and stablest to get running.  I come from a programming not infrastructure
>> backdrop and as pointed out previously implementing a private cloud is not
>> easy, but we managed to setup up for first Cloudstack cluster with 3
>> servers in under one day's effort, the documentation provided was
>> sufficient and was adequate for us to complete the task.
>>
>> I agree you with others you going to need to be more informative here on
>> your problems as I have always found the community responsive and excellent
>> to deal with.
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
>> Noel
>>
>> On 17 November 2014 15:05, Tim Mackey <tm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>  From my perspective there are two issues being raised in this thread.
>>>
>>> 1. The original poster didn't actually ask a question, and despite
>> requests
>>> for more information, nothing which would allow us to help was
>>> forthcoming.  We can't fix that which we don't know to be broken, and as
>>> we're all learning and building our respective experience can't hope to
>>> mirror that of anyone else.
>>>
>>> 2. CloudStack is like every piece of software I've ever worked with; it
>> has
>>> a learning curve.  Cloud in general forces you to rethink your paradigms,
>>> and for me building my first CloudStack cloud took six weeks of
>> unlearning
>>> what I thought "best practice".  Not everything I had to "unlearn" was
>>> CloudStack; some was just bad thinking called "best practice".  There's
>>> lots of information out there, but a learning curve definitely exists,
>> and
>>> even today years after that first experience I continue to learn new
>> things
>>> about CloudStack.
>>>
>>> To Mohammad, I offer this suggestion.  You've engaged with this
>> community,
>>> but specifics are lacking.  It isn't reasonable for the community to
>> offer
>>> assistance without knowing what is troubling you.  Expectations are an
>>> important part of that, and we don't know what yours were, only that
>> you're
>>> unhappy.
>>>
>>> Sandeep has raised specific issues, and I hope they were captured in
>> Jira (
>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CLOUDSTACK).  If they weren't then
>>> there is a very real possibility they won't be addressed until someone
>>> either reports it, or decides to directly fix it.  I know I'm guilty of
>> not
>>> putting Jira reports in, and I suspect I'm not alone.  We all have the
>>> power to complain, but we also have the power to help fix an issue by
>>> taking a few extra minutes to just report the issue, and reporting on a
>>> mailing list doesn't count.
>>>
>>> Sorry for getting on my soap box, but I figured this thread had a good
>>> chance of showing up in some index in the future and that I had an
>>> opportunity to give a bit of guidance.  Hopefully I've not overstepped.
>>>
>>> -tim
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 9:27 AM, sandeep khandekar <
>>> cloudstack.sandeep@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I agree with him, it wastes time, but at the same time you are gaining
>>>> knowledge.
>>>>
>>>> If the documentation was done, he would not have faced this many
>>> problems.
>>>> Single node setup:
>>>> You never told why on restart/shutdown, you loose your secondary
>>>> storage(NFS). - May be we need to disable swap. Still I dont know the
>>>> answer.
>>>>
>>>> Multi-node setup
>>>> Why I cant view my instance. Everything was installed properly, I
>>> connected
>>>> to management server, logged in, Ubuntu instance was successfully
>> setup,
>>>> but I was unable to view it. It showed an error, I forgot the error.
>> why?
>>>> Devloper cloudstack
>>>> Problems with devcloud in devlopment environment.
>>>> devcloud2 never works - then why you mention in your books, links and
>>> docs,
>>>> why dont you refer to devcloud4 in which many changes are done daily.
>>>> Sometimes user gets broken devcloud4, and they get freaked out.
>>>>
>>>> Its not as simple as Vagrant up and vagrant halt.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry I learnt a lot, but we should agree with him, as a starter it
>> took
>>> 9
>>>> months still the job is unfinished. Stopped it, because I freaked out,
>>> and
>>>> I am taking rest, will be back soon.
>>>>
>>>> Dont think it is waste of time speaking, many people are not speaking
>>>> because, they are thinking, in future they may not get the answers for
>>>> their queries.
>>>>
>>>> Cloudstack we love it, but we dont know how to work with it, we are
>>>> learining, and we will be masters soon.
>>>>
>>>> Many people help us here on this group. That is the biggest achievement
>>> of
>>>> these group, but you dont reveal the real recipe because you may loose
>>>> bussiness.
>>>>
>>>> This are my views and I dont mean to hurt anyone in anyway.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 5:38 PM, Francois Gaudreault <
>>>> fgaudreault@cloudops.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> One thing I agree for sure, the thread title is right, that
>> discussion
>>> is
>>>>> starting to be a waste of time :) (although very entertaining)
>>>>>
>>>>> FG
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2014-11-17 4:36 AM, sebgoa wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Nov 15, 2014, at 8:00 PM, Mohammad Mahdi Raja <
>> mraja@shirazu.ac.ir
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Thanks for your answers,
>>>>>>> I installed different version on different infrastructure during
>> the
>>>>>>> time. It is somehow much more unstable that other competitors. Many
>>>>>>> non-documented issues and many unpredictable problems. I know that
>> we
>>>> are
>>>>>>> all here to help each others to feel good about it, but I think we
>>> are
>>>>>>> wasting our times on solving issues instead of doing business !
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any one disagrees ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Yes, I do, I 100% disagree.
>>>>>> Just buy my book and you will be enlightened:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920034377.do
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ps: slighlty sarcastic answer :) enjoy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 12:33  PM, Osay Osman Yuuni <oyuuni@gmail.com
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Mohammed,
>>>>>>>> I'd be interested to know why you think Cloudstack is waiting our
>>>>>>>> time?  Do
>>>>>>>> you have any specific issues that need addressing that you could
>>> not?
>>>>>>>> By
>>>>>>>> Cloudstack who do you actually mean?  The contributors, users,
>>>>>>>> governance?
>>>>>>>> Unless you're able to tell us what makes you think Cloudstack is
>>>> wasting
>>>>>>>> our times I'm afraid I don't see how we can agree with you.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Osay
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 10 November 2014 10:54, Vihar <vi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Was your questions not answered? Or you have issues with setting
>> up
>>>>>>>>> cloudstack?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>> Vihar K
>>>>>>>>> On Nov 10, 2014 2:19 PM, "Erik Weber" <te...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>   On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 9:25 AM, Mohammad Mahdi Raja <
>>>>>>>>> mraja@shirazu.ac.ir>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>   ​Dear All,
>>>>>>>>>>> Does every one have the sense that CloudStack is wasting our
>>> times
>>>> ?
>>>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately I think so.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>   It's probably easier to answer your feelings if you describe a
>>> bit
>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> why
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> you're feeling that way.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why is CloudStack wasting your time? How can it be improved to
>> not
>>>>>>>>>> waste
>>>>>>>>>> your time? etc.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Erik
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Francois Gaudreault
>>>>> Gestionnaire de Produit | Product Manager - Cloud Platform & Services
>>>>> t:514-629-6775
>>>>>
>>>>> CloudOps Votre partenaire infonuagique | Cloud Solutions Experts
>>>>> 420 rue Guy | Montreal | Quebec | H3J 1S6
>>>>> w: cloudops.com | tw: @CloudOps_
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> SANDEEP KHANDEKAR
>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>> Department of Computer science and engineering
>>>> Sreenidhi Institute of science and Technology
>>>> Hyderabad
>>>>
>
>


-- 
Ron Wheeler
President
Artifact Software Inc
email: rwheeler@artifact-software.com
skype: ronaldmwheeler
phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102