You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to dev@cocoon.apache.org by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org> on 2004/08/27 18:38:33 UTC
[request] creation of the Tani branch
I've been away from the real cocoon development for a while, but my day
job requires me to build a prototype using cocoon but with real blocks
implemented.
Therefore, I need to get real blocks working on cocoon.
The closest thing that we have in place for that is Pier's kernel (that
was development with my vocal/written help, but no code). I don't like
the idea of basing our framework on somebody elses, mainly for community
reasons, so I will start from there.
As a committer, and upon the rules of revolutionaries, I hereby request
the creation of the "tani" effort, which is the codename for what I hope
it will become "Cocoon 2.2", even if this will have to be decided by the
community once we feel confident enough.
One of my goals for such a new framework is transparent migration:
therefore 2.2 and not 3.0. Also we'll try to keep as much as the
existing code as possible, to avoid rewrite, therefore introducing new
bugs and stuff.
This means that the "new-kernel" branch will be renamed "tani" and we'll
take it from there.
This should *not* be seen as a competition with the Butterfly branch,
but rather an alternative path to lead to the same goal: simplification
and better webapp-level componentization.
I don't need a vote to make this happen, but I'm asking for comments.
--
Stefano.
Re: [request] creation of the Tani branch
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Le 27 août 04, à 18:38, Stefano Mazzocchi a écrit :
> ...I don't need a vote to make this happen...
But still: big +1 here. I like the name and kanji as well.
-Bertrand, who was lately (pessimistically) wondering whether someone
would need real blocks bad enough to actually implement them ;-)
Re: [request] creation of the Tani branch
Posted by Vadim Gritsenko <va...@reverycodes.com>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> This is, in fact, a cocoon internal fork and, as for the rules of
> revolutionaries, every committer is allowed to ask for it with the name
> that he/she pleases.
How it's so, if it is planned (and discussed, and to some point
designed) feature? Hence, no need for invoking "rules", just go ahead
with development.
Vadim
Re: [request] creation of the Tani branch
Posted by Torsten Curdt <tc...@vafer.org>.
> The problem with calling it "new-kernel" is that the new kernel is just
> part of what that branch will host and this will create naming issues.
Well, ok... thought you wanted to call the kernel
itself "tani".
> I don't want to appear pushy, but this is not a vote.
Well, I guess we all understood ...but just kept
expressing our opinions in a short manner ...and
you asked for comments/feedback ;-)
Since I like the name and we also have "butterfly"...
Would be great to finally get what we are talking
about for so long... Appreciate that effort!
...that's all I wanted to say :-)
cheers
--
Torsten
Re: [request] creation of the Tani branch
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 29 Aug 2004, at 02:53, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> in case it wasn't clear, new-kernel will be renamed Tani.
Fair enough. Maybe you should have posted a "[request] rename of the
new-kernel branch" then. :-)
I'm not going to try and understand why a mere change of a directory
name is necessary to facilitate your upcoming efforts, but "he who does
things gets to decide how things are done" - whether "rules" (*shrug*)
are in favor or not.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
Re: [request] creation of the Tani branch
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> On 28 Aug 2004, at 16:15, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>> Just like Ugo, I feel the need for a clean slate and a place where I
>> can work without breaking everybody else's code.
>
> Let's all use our own hard disk then. :-)
We already are, but you don't see SVN commits from my HD, nor I see the
ones from yours.
> More seriously: there's Butterfly, new-kernel, 2.1_X, trunk, and now
> Tani. I'm getting lost.
in case it wasn't clear, new-kernel will be renamed Tani.
--
Stefano.
Re: [request] creation of the Tani branch
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 28 Aug 2004, at 16:15, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Just like Ugo, I feel the need for a clean slate and a place where I
> can work without breaking everybody else's code.
Let's all use our own hard disk then. :-)
More seriously: there's Butterfly, new-kernel, 2.1_X, trunk, and now
Tani. I'm getting lost.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
Re: [request] creation of the Tani branch
Posted by Geoff Howard <ge...@gmail.com>.
On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 10:15:29 -0400, Stefano Mazzocchi
<st...@apache.org> wrote:
> Torsten Curdt wrote:
> > +1 for the branch
> >
> > and although I really like the name "tani"
> > I think we should stick to what we decided.
> > no fancy names.
> >
> > +1 for keeping the "new-kernel" (or naming
> > it "block-kernel")
>
> Hmmm, what about butterfly then?
>
> The problem with calling it "new-kernel" is that the new kernel is just
> part of what that branch will host and this will create naming issues.
Good point.
> As for giving up the codename: unlike tomcat's catalina or woody, we
> will not use "tani" in the package name or in any part of the contract,
> since we already expect "tani" to be just a codename and to be thrown
> down the drain once we are done with it and the community decides what
> to do.
Good point.
> Just like Ugo, I feel the need for a clean slate and a place where I can
> work without breaking everybody else's code. I personally don't care if
> the code will be used or not, what I care is to create a prototype to
> show to this community and to my group at MIT, what real blocks can give
> you and how they can make your life better (and, for my group at MIT,
> show why Cocoon is not just an XSLT servlet anymore, shrug)
Sounds great. I see distinction between "code names" like this and
final block names (which I still think don't serve us well).
Geoff (sorry I've been out of touch)
Re: [request] creation of the Tani branch
Posted by Reinhard Poetz <re...@apache.org>.
Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> <snip/>
>
>> Just like Ugo, I feel the need for a clean slate and a place where I
>> can work without breaking everybody else's code. I personally don't
>> care if the code will be used or not, what I care is to create a
>> prototype to show to this community and to my group at MIT, what real
>> blocks can give you and how they can make your life better (and, for
>> my group at MIT, show why Cocoon is not just an XSLT servlet anymore,
>> shrug)
>
>
>
> No doubt you agree with this, but it has do be said: it's not only
> about "showing" others, but also about allowing others to jump in,
> which is essential is this is to become the future foundations Cocoon
> is built on.
>
> +1 for new-kernel-renamed-to-tani-or-whatever-its-name. The important
> point, as you mentioned, is that packages names remain brand-less.
the same thoughts here
--
Reinhard, who is really pleased to see that real blocks become reality :-) which makes it much easier for others to jump in
Re: [request] creation of the Tani branch
Posted by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@apache.org>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
<snip/>
> Just like Ugo, I feel the need for a clean slate and a place where I
> can work without breaking everybody else's code. I personally don't
> care if the code will be used or not, what I care is to create a
> prototype to show to this community and to my group at MIT, what real
> blocks can give you and how they can make your life better (and, for
> my group at MIT, show why Cocoon is not just an XSLT servlet anymore,
> shrug)
No doubt you agree with this, but it has do be said: it's not only about
"showing" others, but also about allowing others to jump in, which is
essential is this is to become the future foundations Cocoon is built on.
+1 for new-kernel-renamed-to-tani-or-whatever-its-name. The important
point, as you mentioned, is that packages names remain brand-less.
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
http://www.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com
{ XML, Java, Cocoon, OpenSource }*{ Training, Consulting, Projects }
Re: [request] creation of the Tani branch
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Torsten Curdt wrote:
> +1 for the branch
>
> and although I really like the name "tani"
> I think we should stick to what we decided.
> no fancy names.
>
> +1 for keeping the "new-kernel" (or naming
> it "block-kernel")
Hmmm, what about butterfly then?
The problem with calling it "new-kernel" is that the new kernel is just
part of what that branch will host and this will create naming issues.
This is, in fact, a cocoon internal fork and, as for the rules of
revolutionaries, every committer is allowed to ask for it with the name
that he/she pleases.
As for giving up the codename: unlike tomcat's catalina or woody, we
will not use "tani" in the package name or in any part of the contract,
since we already expect "tani" to be just a codename and to be thrown
down the drain once we are done with it and the community decides what
to do.
I don't want to appear pushy, but this is not a vote.
The reason why the rules for revolutionaries were created was to avoid
external forks, not to make the community limit the ability for internal
forks to happen.
Just like Ugo, I feel the need for a clean slate and a place where I can
work without breaking everybody else's code. I personally don't care if
the code will be used or not, what I care is to create a prototype to
show to this community and to my group at MIT, what real blocks can give
you and how they can make your life better (and, for my group at MIT,
show why Cocoon is not just an XSLT servlet anymore, shrug)
--
Stefano.
Re: [request] creation of the Tani branch
Posted by Torsten Curdt <tc...@vafer.org>.
+1 for the branch
and although I really like the name "tani"
I think we should stick to what we decided.
no fancy names.
+1 for keeping the "new-kernel" (or naming
it "block-kernel")
cheers
--
Torsten
Re: [request] creation of the Tani branch
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 28 Aug 2004, at 06:44, David Crossley wrote:
> However, remember the fate of our "woody" ... we decided
> no fanciful names in released components.
Yup. +1 on keeping the new-kernel branch.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
Re: [request] creation of the Tani branch
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> Tani is the Japanese word for "Valley".
<snipped the excellent portrayal in ascii art
because the house fell down in the email reply :->
> It looks like a house (the block) in the middle of a valley (the
> container)..
>
> The combination is what I really like: the name "valley" accentuates
> the concept of "containment", while its graphical representation has
> the house in foreground, accentuating the concept of "blocks". So, if
> you think about it, when you look at it, you look at blocks, when you
> think about it, you think at containers :-)
Love this symbolism - it is important and powerful.
Such names are fine in development and probably good
because they are inspiring.
However, remember the fate of our "woody" ... we decided
no fanciful names in released components.
--
David Crossley
Re: [request] creation of the Tani branch
Posted by Vadim Gritsenko <va...@reverycodes.com>.
Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> On 27 Aug 2004, at 19:04, Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
>
>> I don't understand what "tani" means
>
>
> (from an old email)
>
> Tani is the Japanese word for "Valley".
>
> http://www.nuthatch.com/kanji/demo/8c37.html
>
> Its kanji is also quite nice:
>
> http://ww1.baywell.ne.jp/fpweb/drlatham/nihongo/kanji/less10/tani.gif
>
> / \
> / /\ \
> / \
> /+--+\
> | |
> |--|
>
> It looks like a house (the block) in the middle of a valley (the
> container)..
>
> The combination is what I really like: the name "valley" accentuates the
> concept of "containment", while its graphical representation has the
> house in foreground, accentuating the concept of "blocks". So, if you
> think about it, when you look at it, you look at blocks, when you think
> about it, you think at containers :-)
Ok, now I remember :-)
Vadim
Re: [request] creation of the Tani branch
Posted by Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org>.
On 27 Aug 2004, at 19:04, Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
>
> I don't understand what "tani" means
(from an old email)
Tani is the Japanese word for "Valley".
http://www.nuthatch.com/kanji/demo/8c37.html
Its kanji is also quite nice:
http://ww1.baywell.ne.jp/fpweb/drlatham/nihongo/kanji/less10/tani.gif
/ \
/ /\ \
/ \
/+--+\
| |
|--|
It looks like a house (the block) in the middle of a valley (the
container)..
The combination is what I really like: the name "valley" accentuates
the concept of "containment", while its graphical representation has
the house in foreground, accentuating the concept of "blocks". So, if
you think about it, when you look at it, you look at blocks, when you
think about it, you think at containers :-)
Pier
Re: [request] creation of the Tani branch
Posted by Vadim Gritsenko <va...@reverycodes.com>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> I hereby request
> the creation of the "tani" effort, which is the codename for what I hope
> it will become "Cocoon 2.2", even if this will have to be decided by the
> community once we feel confident enough.
>
> One of my goals for such a new framework is transparent migration:
> therefore 2.2 and not 3.0. Also we'll try to keep as much as the
> existing code as possible, to avoid rewrite, therefore introducing new
> bugs and stuff.
I agree with 2.X designation as opposed to 3.0; but I thought we already
have kind of plan for 2.2, so most probably your work will land into 2.3
(once stable enough ;-) ?
Other than that, go ahead. I just don't see a point in renaming from
"new-kernel" to "tani": I don't understand what "tani" means, why we
need new name, and, OTOH, "new-kernel" is simple and understandable, so
I would leave it as "new-kernel", or "blocks-kernel"...
Vadim
Re: [request] creation of the Tani branch
Posted by Ugo Cei <ug...@apache.org>.
Il giorno 27/ago/04, alle 18:38, Stefano Mazzocchi ha scritto:
> I don't need a vote to make this happen, but I'm asking for comments.
No comments, just a go ahead from me and a question: what does "tani"
stand for?
Ugo
--
Ugo Cei - http://beblogging.com/