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Posted to java-user@axis.apache.org by Deepal Jayasinghe <de...@opensource.lk> on 2006/10/18 08:31:59 UTC
Re: [Axis2] Distribution packaging restructuring
Hi Thilina ;
> I have ripped off the axis2.war from the distributions. Users will
> have the ability to create axis2.war from the axis2 main binary
> distribution. This will help a lot to users who are planning to deploy
> axis2 in servlet containers other than tomcat. With this users will be
> able to customize (put service.aar's, etc..) the war easily..
>
As a user (if I were user ) first thing I do is download the war and try
it.
What are we gaining not shipping axis2.war ?
I agree that user can download std and run the ant goal , well doesn't
that make unnecessary complication on users
- first need to down load ant
- then need to set the env variable for ant (ANT_HOME)
- then need to run the goal
Please please , think about the simplicity , Axis2 is not only for geek
it should be useful for users who are just trying to use Axis2 as well.
Dont think that everyone knows abt ant (like you do) and asking to do
everything by them selves.
Btw - If we are asking users to run ant tasks , why do we want to think
about the releases, we can ask users to down load axis2 src and run ant
tasks (we can write down the supported ant task somewhere in axis2 site.).
P.S :- As a developer I always love the simplicity and user
friendliness, o.w no one going to use Axis2.
Thanks
Deepal
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Re: [Axis2] Distribution packaging restructuring
Posted by Ajith Ranabahu <aj...@gmail.com>.
Hi Guys,
I'm 0- on this change (just as I said earlier) .The numerous bug
reports we received about WebSphere is probably due to *our* wrong
assumption that the war will be exapanded always and Deepal did manage
to work around it I guess. Anyway the bottom line is that the problem
was really in the code (the assumption we made) rather than the fact
that we had a war distribution :)
If you do look at this in a not-so-much-geek perspective I would say
war is an important artifact - mainly because its "download-drop-you
are done" kind of a thing. Again the argument about having to have Ant
to build is also important. How many users do you think would need the
war ? How many of them would be really willing to install ant and run
the script to generate the war just to play with it ?
Of course the script to build the war can be included (The maven
script already has it. So we could include a simpler ant script with
the binary distro to create the war by copying the things here and
there). There will always be mature users who want to drill down to
the depths of it and such a script will always come in handy for them.
However My view is that majority of the users would not appreciate the
extra troubles to make the Axis war.
While I'm writing this Thilo has answered with exactly the same
concerns I had :) Thilo is a long time Axis user / contributor /
consultant and I would take his comments as very valuable in this
case.
In any case if there is a concern that users might be confused of so
many artifacts available for download - I would say we need to improve
the documentation in the download pages in such a way that there are
enough descriptions for a user to figure out what he needs. Perhaps
something like "what distribution is most suitable for me ? " section
?
--
Ajith Ranabahu
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Re: [Axis2] Distribution packaging restructuring
Posted by Thilina Gunarathne <cs...@gmail.com>.
>
> >
> > Yes... It'll work right off.. Will show only the default version
> service..
So what the problem with that , if user want he can drop his own
> services and see what happen.
Only in Tomcat...
> AFAIK when the user wants to deploy one his own services default axis2
> > war will be usable only in tomcat...
> >
> I agree , but if you go thru the JIRA list you will find out how many
> JIRAs there in the list on war distribution and related web-admin. As I
> can understand that is mean ppl are using axis2 war distribution. So why
> dont we ship that ?. As I remember correct we had war distribution
> since Axis2 M1 and most of the users were (are) using that. Why do you
> want to change that in this release ?
>
I can remember some cases where users code gen using different jars and
tried to to run them in the war which has different jars...
Hope you remember all the "convertToString" case change issues..
They (I also did) the same thing with previous release (I mean modify
> the samples and run). For me no difference b.w the two
Ok... lets wait and see how code to talks..
>
> > Other thing is customizing the war... One example is ripping off the
> > admin console for production use...
>
> Did you find any use case for that , please point me to a JIRA or
> related mail thread.
Come on... It's the reality...
>
> > Also axis2.war is not the only place where users are trying to deploy
> > services.. With the new standard distro users will be able to start
> > the simple axis server against the given repository and they will get
> > the same behaviour as deploying the war...
>
> This is not a new thing , even in last release we had the something (we
> had six distributions) , as I can understand correctly we are not adding
> anything we are just removing the useful stuff from the release.
It was not working out of the box...
Seems like you are accepting that we have too many deliverables, enough to
drive the users mad..
As I said earlier we can always ship the war without much hassle.. Let's
wait and see the response from others...
Thanks,
~Thilina
--
http://webservices.apache.org/~thilina/
http://thilinag.blogspot.com/
Re: [Axis2] Distribution packaging restructuring
Posted by Deepal Jayasinghe <de...@opensource.lk>.
> Hi Deepal,
>
>
> As a user (if I were user ) first thing I do is download the war
> and try
> it.
>
>
> Yes... It'll work right off.. Will show only the default version service..
So what the problem with that , if user want he can drop his own
services and see what happen.
> AFAIK when the user wants to deploy one his own services default axis2
> war will be usable only in tomcat...
>
I agree , but if you go thru the JIRA list you will find out how many
JIRAs there in the list on war distribution and related web-admin. As I
can understand that is mean ppl are using axis2 war distribution. So why
dont we ship that ?. As I remember correct we had war distribution
since Axis2 M1 and most of the users were (are) using that. Why do you
want to change that in this release ?
> With the new setup users can put what ever the custom aar's in to the
> repository given in the standard distro. Then he can run the ant war
> script.. Generated war will have the user's services in there..
As I said earlier , you are only targeting advanced user , not the users
who are just planing to try Axis2 .
>
> On the other hand first thing users will be trying to do with Axis2 is
> to meddle with the samples.. Modify them and try out.. With the new
> setup they can modify the samples in the expanded standard distro it
> self.. Then the modified sample services will appear automatically..
They (I also did) the same thing with previous release (I mean modify
the samples and run). For me no difference b.w the two
>
> Other thing is customizing the war... One example is ripping off the
> admin console for production use...
Did you find any use case for that , please point me to a JIRA or
related mail thread.
>
> Also axis2.war is not the only place where users are trying to deploy
> services.. With the new standard distro users will be able to start
> the simple axis server against the given repository and they will get
> the same behaviour as deploying the war...
This is not a new thing , even in last release we had the something (we
had six distributions) , as I can understand correctly we are not adding
anything we are just removing the useful stuff from the release.
>
> IMHO I'm not in positive for shipping an axis2.war,
Good ,
At this point I am not going to -1 this change , but I am not agree with
this .Most of the time I test services and modules by deploying
axis2.war in tomcat, and having axis2.war is very useful to me. So as a
user I would like to have axis2.war.
Thanks
Deepal
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Re: [Axis2] Distribution packaging restructuring
Posted by Thilina Gunarathne <cs...@gmail.com>.
Hi Deepal,
>
> As a user (if I were user ) first thing I do is download the war and try
> it.
Yes... It'll work right off.. Will show only the default version service..
AFAIK when the user wants to deploy one his own services default axis2 war
will be usable only in tomcat...
With the new setup users can put what ever the custom aar's in to the
repository given in the standard distro. Then he can run the ant war
script.. Generated war will have the user's services in there..
On the other hand first thing users will be trying to do with Axis2 is to
meddle with the samples.. Modify them and try out.. With the new setup they
can modify the samples in the expanded standard distro it self.. Then the
modified sample services will appear automatically..
Other thing is customizing the war... One example is ripping off the admin
console for production use...
Also axis2.war is not the only place where users are trying to deploy
services.. With the new standard distro users will be able to start the
simple axis server against the given repository and they will get the same
behaviour as deploying the war...
IMHO I'm not in positive for shipping an axis2.war, if it does not work for
all the cases... Anyway shipping it is not that a big deal..So let's see how
others see this..
> Btw - If we are asking users to run ant tasks , why do we want to think
> about the releases, we can ask users to down load axis2 src and run ant
> tasks (we can write down the supported ant task somewhere in axis2
> site.).
Hmmm... Good point.. We can try this model for the 1.2 ;-)...
Thanks,
~Thilina
P.S :- As a developer I always love the simplicity and user
> friendliness, o.w no one going to use Axis2.
>
> Thanks
> Deepal
>
>
>
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>
--
http://webservices.apache.org/~thilina/
http://thilinag.blogspot.com/
Re: [Axis2] Distribution packaging restructuring
Posted by Glen Daniels <gl...@thoughtcraft.com>.
Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> OK Ok no problem :-). Its like zero cost for us to build and release
> this .. so I'm fine with it. I was just trying to make it easier for
> users because now they need to download a different distro if they want
> the tools (the command line drivers), which will be a fairly common
> group of users.
>
> Anyway, +1 to keeping it.
+1 to keeping it as well, even though it does contain a lot of redundant
stuff. :(
Many (most? all?) modern servlet containers will accept hot-deployment
of either a WAR or an expanded webapp directory structure. Usually when
the WAR gets deployed, you end up with an expanded directory somewhere
anyway. Once you've got an expanded running webapp, you can drop
expanded Axis service dirs, or .aars in there for your own stuff. So my
point here is that the war even as it stands is typically still going to
be easy for people to deploy their own services into.
--Glen
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Re: [Axis2] Distribution packaging restructuring
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk>.
OK Ok no problem :-). Its like zero cost for us to build and release
this .. so I'm fine with it. I was just trying to make it easier for
users because now they need to download a different distro if they want
the tools (the command line drivers), which will be a fairly common
group of users.
Anyway, +1 to keeping it.
Sanjiva.
On Thu, 2006-10-19 at 19:49 +1300, Thilo Frotscher wrote:
> Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> > The war we ship is useless for *any* user except to run the sample
> > services. That's it. NOTHING else. Do you agree with that assessment?
>
> I couldn't agress less :-) I find the WAR very useful. Especially for
> beginners and first time users. They can just copy that file into their
> web container and start playing with the new framework. They will find
> out that there are some new concepts like modules or upload mechanisms,
> and they will get a good first impression within minutes. It's also a
> very nice show case to see the service upload button work. It'd be nice
> to have a sample AAR for download somewhere, as well as a sample client,
> so that you can just upload the AAR with a few clicks, start the client
> and... it works.
>
> On the other hand, if the first impression of Axis2 1.1 will be, that
> there is no WAR anymore and that you first have to build it yourself,
> many users will be disappointed and won't understand why it was removed
> (as I wouldn't understand it). It doesn't hurt to offer it for download,
> it's just a file on a web server, that can be created automatically in
> the build process for the release.
>
> Personally, I use the WAR file very often just to test some stuff. I
> have a collection of AAR files, which I can copy into the WARs and
> start testing.
>
> Also, please don't forget that not every person who is potentially
> interested in Axis2 has Ant installed on their machine! Sure, they can
> install it, but that's just an annoying, additional step.
>
> I agree with Deepal: don't remove the WAR.
>
> PS: Why does it work with Tomcat only?
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Axis2] Distribution packaging restructuring
Posted by Thilo Frotscher <th...@web.de>.
Thilo Frotscher wrote:
> I couldn't agress less :-)
Sorry, I meant "agree" .
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Re: [Axis2] Distribution packaging restructuring
Posted by Thilo Frotscher <th...@web.de>.
Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> The war we ship is useless for *any* user except to run the sample
> services. That's it. NOTHING else. Do you agree with that assessment?
I couldn't agress less :-) I find the WAR very useful. Especially for
beginners and first time users. They can just copy that file into their
web container and start playing with the new framework. They will find
out that there are some new concepts like modules or upload mechanisms,
and they will get a good first impression within minutes. It's also a
very nice show case to see the service upload button work. It'd be nice
to have a sample AAR for download somewhere, as well as a sample client,
so that you can just upload the AAR with a few clicks, start the client
and... it works.
On the other hand, if the first impression of Axis2 1.1 will be, that
there is no WAR anymore and that you first have to build it yourself,
many users will be disappointed and won't understand why it was removed
(as I wouldn't understand it). It doesn't hurt to offer it for download,
it's just a file on a web server, that can be created automatically in
the build process for the release.
Personally, I use the WAR file very often just to test some stuff. I
have a collection of AAR files, which I can copy into the WARs and
start testing.
Also, please don't forget that not every person who is potentially
interested in Axis2 has Ant installed on their machine! Sure, they can
install it, but that's just an annoying, additional step.
I agree with Deepal: don't remove the WAR.
PS: Why does it work with Tomcat only?
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Re: [Axis2] Distribution packaging restructuring
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk>.
The war we ship is useless for *any* user except to run the sample
services. That's it. NOTHING else. Do you agree with that assessment?
Because if they want to add their own services, they need to un-jar the
WAR, and put stuff and then jar it up.
All this would do is to not give them something that's essentially
useless.
However, if you really want to have that released all we have to do is
type "ant" in the webapp dir and then distribute that too. So its not at
all big deal to build it or dist it, but it does add complexity to first
time users because they have to figure out what they need .. and first
download the war and then realize that crap that's not enough because
they don't have any development tools etc. and then go back and get the
standard distribution.
Sanjiva.
On Wed, 2006-10-18 at 01:31 -0500, Deepal Jayasinghe wrote:
> Hi Thilina ;
>
> > I have ripped off the axis2.war from the distributions. Users will
> > have the ability to create axis2.war from the axis2 main binary
> > distribution. This will help a lot to users who are planning to deploy
> > axis2 in servlet containers other than tomcat. With this users will be
> > able to customize (put service.aar's, etc..) the war easily..
> >
> As a user (if I were user ) first thing I do is download the war and try
> it.
>
> What are we gaining not shipping axis2.war ?
>
> I agree that user can download std and run the ant goal , well doesn't
> that make unnecessary complication on users
> - first need to down load ant
> - then need to set the env variable for ant (ANT_HOME)
> - then need to run the goal
>
> Please please , think about the simplicity , Axis2 is not only for geek
> it should be useful for users who are just trying to use Axis2 as well.
>
> Dont think that everyone knows abt ant (like you do) and asking to do
> everything by them selves.
>
> Btw - If we are asking users to run ant tasks , why do we want to think
> about the releases, we can ask users to down load axis2 src and run ant
> tasks (we can write down the supported ant task somewhere in axis2 site.).
>
> P.S :- As a developer I always love the simplicity and user
> friendliness, o.w no one going to use Axis2.
>
> Thanks
> Deepal
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: axis-dev-unsubscribe@ws.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: axis-dev-help@ws.apache.org
>
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Re: [Axis2] Distribution packaging restructuring
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk>.
The war we ship is useless for *any* user except to run the sample
services. That's it. NOTHING else. Do you agree with that assessment?
Because if they want to add their own services, they need to un-jar the
WAR, and put stuff and then jar it up.
All this would do is to not give them something that's essentially
useless.
However, if you really want to have that released all we have to do is
type "ant" in the webapp dir and then distribute that too. So its not at
all big deal to build it or dist it, but it does add complexity to first
time users because they have to figure out what they need .. and first
download the war and then realize that crap that's not enough because
they don't have any development tools etc. and then go back and get the
standard distribution.
Sanjiva.
On Wed, 2006-10-18 at 01:31 -0500, Deepal Jayasinghe wrote:
> Hi Thilina ;
>
> > I have ripped off the axis2.war from the distributions. Users will
> > have the ability to create axis2.war from the axis2 main binary
> > distribution. This will help a lot to users who are planning to deploy
> > axis2 in servlet containers other than tomcat. With this users will be
> > able to customize (put service.aar's, etc..) the war easily..
> >
> As a user (if I were user ) first thing I do is download the war and try
> it.
>
> What are we gaining not shipping axis2.war ?
>
> I agree that user can download std and run the ant goal , well doesn't
> that make unnecessary complication on users
> - first need to down load ant
> - then need to set the env variable for ant (ANT_HOME)
> - then need to run the goal
>
> Please please , think about the simplicity , Axis2 is not only for geek
> it should be useful for users who are just trying to use Axis2 as well.
>
> Dont think that everyone knows abt ant (like you do) and asking to do
> everything by them selves.
>
> Btw - If we are asking users to run ant tasks , why do we want to think
> about the releases, we can ask users to down load axis2 src and run ant
> tasks (we can write down the supported ant task somewhere in axis2 site.).
>
> P.S :- As a developer I always love the simplicity and user
> friendliness, o.w no one going to use Axis2.
>
> Thanks
> Deepal
>
>
>
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> For additional commands, e-mail: axis-dev-help@ws.apache.org
>
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