[RFC] Swing interop features

[Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>]

Hi all,

One of the things I have been focusing on for Pivot 2.0 is trying to make it easier for Swing developers to transition to Pivot. For example, DesktopApplicationContext now supports multiple (optionally modal) top-level frame windows, and it is now much easier to use Pivot components within an existing Swing application:

http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/pivot/trunk/examples/src/org/apache/pivot/examples/displays/

http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/pivot/trunk/examples/src/org/apache/pivot/examples/swing/

Another idea I had was to create a "Pivot" L&F for Swing. This L&F would mimic the appearance of the Terra theme, to help provide visual consistency for applications that use both Pivot and Swing. I also thought it might be useful to provide adapter classes for Swing model data (primarily ListModel, TableModel,TreeModel, and SpinnerModel). These would allow developers to begin using Pivot components without needing to rewrite all of their application internals.

What do you think? Would such features be useful to a Swing developer? Might they help convince developers to consider moving applications from Swing to Pivot?

Thanks for your feedback,
Greg

Re: [RFC] Swing interop features

[Noel Grandin <no...@gmail.com>]

 Hi Chris

What components in particular, are you missing?

-- Noel

Chris Bartlett wrote:
> One of the most important things for my choice for java GUI work is richness
> of the components/widgets.  Pivot has a good selection, but there are a
> number of JIRA tickets suggesting improvements which I would like to see.
>
> The creation of a brand new component would probably be a fairly daunting
> task for a new Pivot user, so the more that are available out of the box,
> the better IMHO.  In addition to the quantity they should be as configurable
> as possible.
>
> My only previous experience with writing java GUIs was with (the sorely
> missed!) Thinlet.  These were mainly for my own use and were hacked together
> as needed when time allowed.  Because of that I can't really comment on
> original question, but with my circumstances I doubt I would have considered
> using both Pivot and Thinlet together if it was an option.
>
> I appreciate the benefits making Pivot more accessible to Swing developers,
> but don't have the experience with the theme/L&F side of Pivot to be
> understand the effort involved.  If you feel it is doable without adding a
> lot of additional complexity or maintenance issues, then I don't see the
> harm.
>
> Chris

Re: [RFC] Swing interop features

[Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>]

> I appreciate the benefits making Pivot more accessible to Swing developers,
> but don't have the experience with the theme/L&F side of Pivot to be
> understand the effort involved.  If you feel it is doable without adding a
> lot of additional complexity or maintenance issues, then I don't see the
> harm.

I believe it can be done without introducing any additional complexity to the platform itself (in fact, it could even be a separate project). I'm just trying to get a sense for whether or not it is worth doing, since it could be pretty time-consuming. If I heard from existing Swing developers that these features would strongly influence their decision to consider moving to Pivot, I would probably prioritize it higher than some of the other items I'm currently working on. Otherwise, I may just file it as a nice-to-have for now.

Re: [RFC] Swing interop features

[Chris Bartlett <cb...@gmail.com>]

One of the most important things for my choice for java GUI work is richness
of the components/widgets.  Pivot has a good selection, but there are a
number of JIRA tickets suggesting improvements which I would like to see.

The creation of a brand new component would probably be a fairly daunting
task for a new Pivot user, so the more that are available out of the box,
the better IMHO.  In addition to the quantity they should be as configurable
as possible.

My only previous experience with writing java GUIs was with (the sorely
missed!) Thinlet.  These were mainly for my own use and were hacked together
as needed when time allowed.  Because of that I can't really comment on
original question, but with my circumstances I doubt I would have considered
using both Pivot and Thinlet together if it was an option.

I appreciate the benefits making Pivot more accessible to Swing developers,
but don't have the experience with the theme/L&F side of Pivot to be
understand the effort involved.  If you feel it is doable without adding a
lot of additional complexity or maintenance issues, then I don't see the
harm.

Chris

On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 7:37 PM, Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com> wrote:

> The competitive landscape is most definitely broader than just
> Swing/JavaFX. I doubt that Pivot will appeal to .NET users, but Flex and GWT
> developers are certainly also in Pivot's target market.
>
> On Aug 2, 2010, at 9:57 PM, aappddeevv wrote:
>
> > Do you think that if someone has to move from Swing to JavaFX, that the
> > decision will then become bigger--does the entire UI stack come under
> > scrutiny? E.g. if I have to have to move from Swing, perhaps I should
> > consider a wider variety of toolkits other than JavaFX? If so, the
> > competition is bigger than swingers and the migration benefits story may
> > need to be different because component reuse may not be the key factor
> and
> > reskilling may not be critical.
> >
> > I don't know the answer. Most likely new pivot developers have a swing
> > background but I am not sure there is a linkage beyond that.
> >
> > If integrating somewhat with swing brings a wider variety of components
> > available, that does not seem so bad.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Greg Brown [mailto:gkbrown@mac.com]
> > Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 1:58 PM
> > To: user@pivot.apache.org
> > Cc: dev@pivot.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: [RFC] Swing interop features
> >
> > Yeah, writing a L&F is not a trivial task. But it is doable, and may be
> > worthwhile if it helps attract new developers.
> >
> > My primary goal in improving Swing support is to give developers another
> > reason to consider Pivot over JavaFX, which apparently doesn't provide
> any
> > migration path from Swing. Swing developers constitute a large percentage
> of
> > Pivot's target audience, so making it easier for them to switch to Pivot
> > seems like a good idea.
> >
> > Anyone else want to comment?
> >
> >
> > On Aug 2, 2010, at 10:09 AM, Noel Grandin wrote:
> >
> >> Greg Brown wrote:
> >>>> Visual consistency is a double edged sword. If things are obviously
> > different, people live with it, but once you start
> >>>> down the road towards consistency, users will get pickier and pickier.
> >>> My idea was to back the L&F with the actual Terra skins, so in theory
> > they should look exactly the same.
> >>>
> >> Sounds like a good idea. But quite a lot of work. The Swing skin class
> > code is pretty messy inside.
> >>>> I would rather we simply focussed on improving the Pivot L&F - for
> > example, the default fonts are completely wrong on my
> >>>> desktop.
> >>> Can you elaborate? The default font is Verdana, which (IMO) looks
> pretty
> > good across all platforms. What font would you prefer to use?
> >>>
> >>> What other suggestions do you have for improving Terra? The feedback I
> > have gotten recently is that the current L&F is actually pretty good.
> >>>
> >> The font size is wrong. We run a lot of large screens at high resolution
> > resolution here, so it's not uncommon for the
> >> font size to be non-default.
> >>
> >> Pivot in general looks pretty good by itself, but because it doesn't use
> > the default system font, and it doesn't use it
> >> at the correct size, it tends to be the odd one out when used in
> > conjunction with other stuff.
> >
>
>

Re: [RFC] Swing interop features

[Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>]

The competitive landscape is most definitely broader than just Swing/JavaFX. I doubt that Pivot will appeal to .NET users, but Flex and GWT developers are certainly also in Pivot's target market.

On Aug 2, 2010, at 9:57 PM, aappddeevv wrote:

> Do you think that if someone has to move from Swing to JavaFX, that the
> decision will then become bigger--does the entire UI stack come under
> scrutiny? E.g. if I have to have to move from Swing, perhaps I should
> consider a wider variety of toolkits other than JavaFX? If so, the
> competition is bigger than swingers and the migration benefits story may
> need to be different because component reuse may not be the key factor and
> reskilling may not be critical.
> 
> I don't know the answer. Most likely new pivot developers have a swing
> background but I am not sure there is a linkage beyond that.
> 
> If integrating somewhat with swing brings a wider variety of components
> available, that does not seem so bad.
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Greg Brown [mailto:gkbrown@mac.com] 
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 1:58 PM
> To: user@pivot.apache.org
> Cc: dev@pivot.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [RFC] Swing interop features
> 
> Yeah, writing a L&F is not a trivial task. But it is doable, and may be
> worthwhile if it helps attract new developers.
> 
> My primary goal in improving Swing support is to give developers another
> reason to consider Pivot over JavaFX, which apparently doesn't provide any
> migration path from Swing. Swing developers constitute a large percentage of
> Pivot's target audience, so making it easier for them to switch to Pivot
> seems like a good idea.
> 
> Anyone else want to comment?
> 
> 
> On Aug 2, 2010, at 10:09 AM, Noel Grandin wrote:
> 
>> Greg Brown wrote:
>>>> Visual consistency is a double edged sword. If things are obviously
> different, people live with it, but once you start
>>>> down the road towards consistency, users will get pickier and pickier.
>>> My idea was to back the L&F with the actual Terra skins, so in theory
> they should look exactly the same.
>>> 
>> Sounds like a good idea. But quite a lot of work. The Swing skin class
> code is pretty messy inside.
>>>> I would rather we simply focussed on improving the Pivot L&F - for
> example, the default fonts are completely wrong on my
>>>> desktop.
>>> Can you elaborate? The default font is Verdana, which (IMO) looks pretty
> good across all platforms. What font would you prefer to use?
>>> 
>>> What other suggestions do you have for improving Terra? The feedback I
> have gotten recently is that the current L&F is actually pretty good.
>>> 
>> The font size is wrong. We run a lot of large screens at high resolution
> resolution here, so it's not uncommon for the
>> font size to be non-default.
>> 
>> Pivot in general looks pretty good by itself, but because it doesn't use
> the default system font, and it doesn't use it
>> at the correct size, it tends to be the odd one out when used in
> conjunction with other stuff.
> 

Re: [RFC] Swing interop features

[Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>]

The competitive landscape is most definitely broader than just Swing/JavaFX. I doubt that Pivot will appeal to .NET users, but Flex and GWT developers are certainly also in Pivot's target market.

On Aug 2, 2010, at 9:57 PM, aappddeevv wrote:

> Do you think that if someone has to move from Swing to JavaFX, that the
> decision will then become bigger--does the entire UI stack come under
> scrutiny? E.g. if I have to have to move from Swing, perhaps I should
> consider a wider variety of toolkits other than JavaFX? If so, the
> competition is bigger than swingers and the migration benefits story may
> need to be different because component reuse may not be the key factor and
> reskilling may not be critical.
> 
> I don't know the answer. Most likely new pivot developers have a swing
> background but I am not sure there is a linkage beyond that.
> 
> If integrating somewhat with swing brings a wider variety of components
> available, that does not seem so bad.
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Greg Brown [mailto:gkbrown@mac.com] 
> Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 1:58 PM
> To: user@pivot.apache.org
> Cc: dev@pivot.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [RFC] Swing interop features
> 
> Yeah, writing a L&F is not a trivial task. But it is doable, and may be
> worthwhile if it helps attract new developers.
> 
> My primary goal in improving Swing support is to give developers another
> reason to consider Pivot over JavaFX, which apparently doesn't provide any
> migration path from Swing. Swing developers constitute a large percentage of
> Pivot's target audience, so making it easier for them to switch to Pivot
> seems like a good idea.
> 
> Anyone else want to comment?
> 
> 
> On Aug 2, 2010, at 10:09 AM, Noel Grandin wrote:
> 
>> Greg Brown wrote:
>>>> Visual consistency is a double edged sword. If things are obviously
> different, people live with it, but once you start
>>>> down the road towards consistency, users will get pickier and pickier.
>>> My idea was to back the L&F with the actual Terra skins, so in theory
> they should look exactly the same.
>>> 
>> Sounds like a good idea. But quite a lot of work. The Swing skin class
> code is pretty messy inside.
>>>> I would rather we simply focussed on improving the Pivot L&F - for
> example, the default fonts are completely wrong on my
>>>> desktop.
>>> Can you elaborate? The default font is Verdana, which (IMO) looks pretty
> good across all platforms. What font would you prefer to use?
>>> 
>>> What other suggestions do you have for improving Terra? The feedback I
> have gotten recently is that the current L&F is actually pretty good.
>>> 
>> The font size is wrong. We run a lot of large screens at high resolution
> resolution here, so it's not uncommon for the
>> font size to be non-default.
>> 
>> Pivot in general looks pretty good by itself, but because it doesn't use
> the default system font, and it doesn't use it
>> at the correct size, it tends to be the odd one out when used in
> conjunction with other stuff.
> 

RE: [RFC] Swing interop features

[aappddeevv <aa...@verizon.net>]

Do you think that if someone has to move from Swing to JavaFX, that the
decision will then become bigger--does the entire UI stack come under
scrutiny? E.g. if I have to have to move from Swing, perhaps I should
consider a wider variety of toolkits other than JavaFX? If so, the
competition is bigger than swingers and the migration benefits story may
need to be different because component reuse may not be the key factor and
reskilling may not be critical.

I don't know the answer. Most likely new pivot developers have a swing
background but I am not sure there is a linkage beyond that.

If integrating somewhat with swing brings a wider variety of components
available, that does not seem so bad.



-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Brown [mailto:gkbrown@mac.com] 
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 1:58 PM
To: user@pivot.apache.org
Cc: dev@pivot.apache.org
Subject: Re: [RFC] Swing interop features

Yeah, writing a L&F is not a trivial task. But it is doable, and may be
worthwhile if it helps attract new developers.

My primary goal in improving Swing support is to give developers another
reason to consider Pivot over JavaFX, which apparently doesn't provide any
migration path from Swing. Swing developers constitute a large percentage of
Pivot's target audience, so making it easier for them to switch to Pivot
seems like a good idea.

Anyone else want to comment?


On Aug 2, 2010, at 10:09 AM, Noel Grandin wrote:

> Greg Brown wrote:
>>> Visual consistency is a double edged sword. If things are obviously
different, people live with it, but once you start
>>> down the road towards consistency, users will get pickier and pickier.
>> My idea was to back the L&F with the actual Terra skins, so in theory
they should look exactly the same.
>> 
> Sounds like a good idea. But quite a lot of work. The Swing skin class
code is pretty messy inside.
>>> I would rather we simply focussed on improving the Pivot L&F - for
example, the default fonts are completely wrong on my
>>> desktop.
>> Can you elaborate? The default font is Verdana, which (IMO) looks pretty
good across all platforms. What font would you prefer to use?
>> 
>> What other suggestions do you have for improving Terra? The feedback I
have gotten recently is that the current L&F is actually pretty good.
>> 
> The font size is wrong. We run a lot of large screens at high resolution
resolution here, so it's not uncommon for the
> font size to be non-default.
> 
> Pivot in general looks pretty good by itself, but because it doesn't use
the default system font, and it doesn't use it
> at the correct size, it tends to be the odd one out when used in
conjunction with other stuff.

Re: [RFC] Swing interop features

[Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>]

> A crazy idea: and try to use existing Swing components with Pivot
> wrappers (Scala Swing seems to do something like this ... Ok, complex
> but powerful, and with the benefit to have the original L&F) ...

That's certainly possible too. A Pivot theme could (theoretically) be created that uses Swing UI delegates under the hood.

> my fear is to try to implement something that will be complex to
> mantain (L&F fidelity with Swing) and that could not port too much
> users to Pivot ... but here none has the answer ...

Again, the idea would be to simply delegate to the existing Terra skin classes, so there shouldn't be much to maintain once the general approach is established.

> And to finish only few small things:
> - to solve font problems as seen by Noel, what do you think on adding
> to the Skin json definition file (containing skin colors and other
> settings) also a list of alternate fonts/dimensions to use (and maybe
> also a way to specify "use native font and dimension") ? I'm already
> working on this for other features for the 2.0.

I think the alternate font list makes sense. I'm not sure about trying to match the native font. Like Flex and Silverlight (as well as JavaFX), Pivot defines its own (cross-platform) look and feel. It doesn't attempt to emulate or match the native L&F because there are too many other issues with that approach.

> - to improve a Swing-like L&F, what do you think on a new Terra's
> theme json configuration file containing Swing colors (and fonts, etc)
> ? Simple to do and could give a similar appearance ... and also this
> for the 2.0.

That is not a bad idea. Actually, I am wondering if it might be possible to create a sort of "adaptive" version of Terra that could dynamically generate its color palette from the current Swing default L&F...

Re: [RFC] Swing interop features

[Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>]

> A crazy idea: and try to use existing Swing components with Pivot
> wrappers (Scala Swing seems to do something like this ... Ok, complex
> but powerful, and with the benefit to have the original L&F) ...

That's certainly possible too. A Pivot theme could (theoretically) be created that uses Swing UI delegates under the hood.

> my fear is to try to implement something that will be complex to
> mantain (L&F fidelity with Swing) and that could not port too much
> users to Pivot ... but here none has the answer ...

Again, the idea would be to simply delegate to the existing Terra skin classes, so there shouldn't be much to maintain once the general approach is established.

> And to finish only few small things:
> - to solve font problems as seen by Noel, what do you think on adding
> to the Skin json definition file (containing skin colors and other
> settings) also a list of alternate fonts/dimensions to use (and maybe
> also a way to specify "use native font and dimension") ? I'm already
> working on this for other features for the 2.0.

I think the alternate font list makes sense. I'm not sure about trying to match the native font. Like Flex and Silverlight (as well as JavaFX), Pivot defines its own (cross-platform) look and feel. It doesn't attempt to emulate or match the native L&F because there are too many other issues with that approach.

> - to improve a Swing-like L&F, what do you think on a new Terra's
> theme json configuration file containing Swing colors (and fonts, etc)
> ? Simple to do and could give a similar appearance ... and also this
> for the 2.0.

That is not a bad idea. Actually, I am wondering if it might be possible to create a sort of "adaptive" version of Terra that could dynamically generate its color palette from the current Swing default L&F...

Re: [RFC] Swing interop features

[Sandro Martini <sa...@gmail.com>]

Hi to all,

> Yeah, writing a L&F is not a trivial task. But it is doable, and may be worthwhile if it helps attract new developers.
with the architecture of Pivot an additional skin for this could be a
good solution.
A crazy idea: and try to use existing Swing components with Pivot
wrappers (Scala Swing seems to do something like this ... Ok, complex
but powerful, and with the benefit to have the original L&F) ...
Comments ?

> My primary goal in improving Swing support is to give developers another reason to consider Pivot over JavaFX, which apparently doesn't provide any migration path from Swing. Swing developers constitute a large percentage of Pivot's target audience, so making it easier for them to switch to Pivot seems like a good idea.
my fear is to try to implement something that will be complex to
mantain (L&F fidelity with Swing) and that could not port too much
users to Pivot ... but here none has the answer ...
Probably Pivot is more interesting than JavaFX for Java/Swing users
requiring not-so-graphics-stuff in their application, so why not try ?


And to finish only few small things:
- to solve font problems as seen by Noel, what do you think on adding
to the Skin json definition file (containing skin colors and other
settings) also a list of alternate fonts/dimensions to use (and maybe
also a way to specify "use native font and dimension") ? I'm already
working on this for other features for the 2.0.
- to improve a Swing-like L&F, what do you think on a new Terra's
theme json configuration file containing Swing colors (and fonts, etc)
? Simple to do and could give a similar appearance ... and also this
for the 2.0.

Bye,
Sandro

RE: [RFC] Swing interop features

[aappddeevv <aa...@verizon.net>]

Do you think that if someone has to move from Swing to JavaFX, that the
decision will then become bigger--does the entire UI stack come under
scrutiny? E.g. if I have to have to move from Swing, perhaps I should
consider a wider variety of toolkits other than JavaFX? If so, the
competition is bigger than swingers and the migration benefits story may
need to be different because component reuse may not be the key factor and
reskilling may not be critical.

I don't know the answer. Most likely new pivot developers have a swing
background but I am not sure there is a linkage beyond that.

If integrating somewhat with swing brings a wider variety of components
available, that does not seem so bad.



-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Brown [mailto:gkbrown@mac.com] 
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 1:58 PM
To: user@pivot.apache.org
Cc: dev@pivot.apache.org
Subject: Re: [RFC] Swing interop features

Yeah, writing a L&F is not a trivial task. But it is doable, and may be
worthwhile if it helps attract new developers.

My primary goal in improving Swing support is to give developers another
reason to consider Pivot over JavaFX, which apparently doesn't provide any
migration path from Swing. Swing developers constitute a large percentage of
Pivot's target audience, so making it easier for them to switch to Pivot
seems like a good idea.

Anyone else want to comment?


On Aug 2, 2010, at 10:09 AM, Noel Grandin wrote:

> Greg Brown wrote:
>>> Visual consistency is a double edged sword. If things are obviously
different, people live with it, but once you start
>>> down the road towards consistency, users will get pickier and pickier.
>> My idea was to back the L&F with the actual Terra skins, so in theory
they should look exactly the same.
>> 
> Sounds like a good idea. But quite a lot of work. The Swing skin class
code is pretty messy inside.
>>> I would rather we simply focussed on improving the Pivot L&F - for
example, the default fonts are completely wrong on my
>>> desktop.
>> Can you elaborate? The default font is Verdana, which (IMO) looks pretty
good across all platforms. What font would you prefer to use?
>> 
>> What other suggestions do you have for improving Terra? The feedback I
have gotten recently is that the current L&F is actually pretty good.
>> 
> The font size is wrong. We run a lot of large screens at high resolution
resolution here, so it's not uncommon for the
> font size to be non-default.
> 
> Pivot in general looks pretty good by itself, but because it doesn't use
the default system font, and it doesn't use it
> at the correct size, it tends to be the odd one out when used in
conjunction with other stuff.

Re: [RFC] Swing interop features

[Sandro Martini <sa...@gmail.com>]

Hi to all,

> Yeah, writing a L&F is not a trivial task. But it is doable, and may be worthwhile if it helps attract new developers.
with the architecture of Pivot an additional skin for this could be a
good solution.
A crazy idea: and try to use existing Swing components with Pivot
wrappers (Scala Swing seems to do something like this ... Ok, complex
but powerful, and with the benefit to have the original L&F) ...
Comments ?

> My primary goal in improving Swing support is to give developers another reason to consider Pivot over JavaFX, which apparently doesn't provide any migration path from Swing. Swing developers constitute a large percentage of Pivot's target audience, so making it easier for them to switch to Pivot seems like a good idea.
my fear is to try to implement something that will be complex to
mantain (L&F fidelity with Swing) and that could not port too much
users to Pivot ... but here none has the answer ...
Probably Pivot is more interesting than JavaFX for Java/Swing users
requiring not-so-graphics-stuff in their application, so why not try ?


And to finish only few small things:
- to solve font problems as seen by Noel, what do you think on adding
to the Skin json definition file (containing skin colors and other
settings) also a list of alternate fonts/dimensions to use (and maybe
also a way to specify "use native font and dimension") ? I'm already
working on this for other features for the 2.0.
- to improve a Swing-like L&F, what do you think on a new Terra's
theme json configuration file containing Swing colors (and fonts, etc)
? Simple to do and could give a similar appearance ... and also this
for the 2.0.

Bye,
Sandro

Re: [RFC] Swing interop features

[Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>]

Yeah, writing a L&F is not a trivial task. But it is doable, and may be worthwhile if it helps attract new developers.

My primary goal in improving Swing support is to give developers another reason to consider Pivot over JavaFX, which apparently doesn't provide any migration path from Swing. Swing developers constitute a large percentage of Pivot's target audience, so making it easier for them to switch to Pivot seems like a good idea.

Anyone else want to comment?


On Aug 2, 2010, at 10:09 AM, Noel Grandin wrote:

> Greg Brown wrote:
>>> Visual consistency is a double edged sword. If things are obviously different, people live with it, but once you start
>>> down the road towards consistency, users will get pickier and pickier.
>> My idea was to back the L&F with the actual Terra skins, so in theory they should look exactly the same.
>> 
> Sounds like a good idea. But quite a lot of work. The Swing skin class code is pretty messy inside.
>>> I would rather we simply focussed on improving the Pivot L&F - for example, the default fonts are completely wrong on my
>>> desktop.
>> Can you elaborate? The default font is Verdana, which (IMO) looks pretty good across all platforms. What font would you prefer to use?
>> 
>> What other suggestions do you have for improving Terra? The feedback I have gotten recently is that the current L&F is actually pretty good.
>> 
> The font size is wrong. We run a lot of large screens at high resolution resolution here, so it's not uncommon for the
> font size to be non-default.
> 
> Pivot in general looks pretty good by itself, but because it doesn't use the default system font, and it doesn't use it
> at the correct size, it tends to be the odd one out when used in conjunction with other stuff.

Re: [RFC] Swing interop features

[Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>]

Yeah, writing a L&F is not a trivial task. But it is doable, and may be worthwhile if it helps attract new developers.

My primary goal in improving Swing support is to give developers another reason to consider Pivot over JavaFX, which apparently doesn't provide any migration path from Swing. Swing developers constitute a large percentage of Pivot's target audience, so making it easier for them to switch to Pivot seems like a good idea.

Anyone else want to comment?


On Aug 2, 2010, at 10:09 AM, Noel Grandin wrote:

> Greg Brown wrote:
>>> Visual consistency is a double edged sword. If things are obviously different, people live with it, but once you start
>>> down the road towards consistency, users will get pickier and pickier.
>> My idea was to back the L&F with the actual Terra skins, so in theory they should look exactly the same.
>> 
> Sounds like a good idea. But quite a lot of work. The Swing skin class code is pretty messy inside.
>>> I would rather we simply focussed on improving the Pivot L&F - for example, the default fonts are completely wrong on my
>>> desktop.
>> Can you elaborate? The default font is Verdana, which (IMO) looks pretty good across all platforms. What font would you prefer to use?
>> 
>> What other suggestions do you have for improving Terra? The feedback I have gotten recently is that the current L&F is actually pretty good.
>> 
> The font size is wrong. We run a lot of large screens at high resolution resolution here, so it's not uncommon for the
> font size to be non-default.
> 
> Pivot in general looks pretty good by itself, but because it doesn't use the default system font, and it doesn't use it
> at the correct size, it tends to be the odd one out when used in conjunction with other stuff.

Re: [RFC] Swing interop features

[Noel Grandin <no...@gmail.com>]

 Greg Brown wrote:
>> Visual consistency is a double edged sword. If things are obviously different, people live with it, but once you start
>> down the road towards consistency, users will get pickier and pickier.
> My idea was to back the L&F with the actual Terra skins, so in theory they should look exactly the same.
>
Sounds like a good idea. But quite a lot of work. The Swing skin class code is pretty messy inside.
>> I would rather we simply focussed on improving the Pivot L&F - for example, the default fonts are completely wrong on my
>> desktop.
> Can you elaborate? The default font is Verdana, which (IMO) looks pretty good across all platforms. What font would you prefer to use?
>
> What other suggestions do you have for improving Terra? The feedback I have gotten recently is that the current L&F is actually pretty good.
>
The font size is wrong. We run a lot of large screens at high resolution resolution here, so it's not uncommon for the
font size to be non-default.

Pivot in general looks pretty good by itself, but because it doesn't use the default system font, and it doesn't use it
at the correct size, it tends to be the odd one out when used in conjunction with other stuff.

Re: [RFC] Swing interop features

[Noel Grandin <no...@gmail.com>]

 Greg Brown wrote:
>> Visual consistency is a double edged sword. If things are obviously different, people live with it, but once you start
>> down the road towards consistency, users will get pickier and pickier.
> My idea was to back the L&F with the actual Terra skins, so in theory they should look exactly the same.
>
Sounds like a good idea. But quite a lot of work. The Swing skin class code is pretty messy inside.
>> I would rather we simply focussed on improving the Pivot L&F - for example, the default fonts are completely wrong on my
>> desktop.
> Can you elaborate? The default font is Verdana, which (IMO) looks pretty good across all platforms. What font would you prefer to use?
>
> What other suggestions do you have for improving Terra? The feedback I have gotten recently is that the current L&F is actually pretty good.
>
The font size is wrong. We run a lot of large screens at high resolution resolution here, so it's not uncommon for the
font size to be non-default.

Pivot in general looks pretty good by itself, but because it doesn't use the default system font, and it doesn't use it
at the correct size, it tends to be the odd one out when used in conjunction with other stuff.

Re: [RFC] Swing interop features

[Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>]

> Visual consistency is a double edged sword. If things are obviously different, people live with it, but once you start
> down the road towards consistency, users will get pickier and pickier.

My idea was to back the L&F with the actual Terra skins, so in theory they should look exactly the same.

> I would rather we simply focussed on improving the Pivot L&F - for example, the default fonts are completely wrong on my
> desktop.

Can you elaborate? The default font is Verdana, which (IMO) looks pretty good across all platforms. What font would you prefer to use?

What other suggestions do you have for improving Terra? The feedback I have gotten recently is that the current L&F is actually pretty good.

Re: [RFC] Swing interop features

[Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>]

> Visual consistency is a double edged sword. If things are obviously different, people live with it, but once you start
> down the road towards consistency, users will get pickier and pickier.

My idea was to back the L&F with the actual Terra skins, so in theory they should look exactly the same.

> I would rather we simply focussed on improving the Pivot L&F - for example, the default fonts are completely wrong on my
> desktop.

Can you elaborate? The default font is Verdana, which (IMO) looks pretty good across all platforms. What font would you prefer to use?

What other suggestions do you have for improving Terra? The feedback I have gotten recently is that the current L&F is actually pretty good.

Re: [RFC] Swing interop features

[Noel Grandin <no...@gmail.com>]

 Hi

I think the idea of adapter classes for Swing model data would be somewhat useful, but most Swing programmers don't seem
to bother to actually implement these interfaces themselves.

Visual consistency is a double edged sword. If things are obviously different, people live with it, but once you start
down the road towards consistency, users will get pickier and pickier.
I would rather we simply focussed on improving the Pivot L&F - for example, the default fonts are completely wrong on my
desktop.

-- Noel

Greg Brown wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> One of the things I have been focusing on for Pivot 2.0 is trying to make it easier for Swing developers to transition to Pivot. For example, DesktopApplicationContext now supports multiple (optionally modal) top-level frame windows, and it is now much easier to use Pivot components within an existing Swing application:
>
> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/pivot/trunk/examples/src/org/apache/pivot/examples/displays/
>
> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/pivot/trunk/examples/src/org/apache/pivot/examples/swing/
>
> Another idea I had was to create a "Pivot" L&F for Swing. This L&F would mimic the appearance of the Terra theme, to help provide visual consistency for applications that use both Pivot and Swing. I also thought it might be useful to provide adapter classes for Swing model data (primarily ListModel, TableModel,TreeModel, and SpinnerModel). These would allow developers to begin using Pivot components without needing to rewrite all of their application internals.
>
> What do you think? Would such features be useful to a Swing developer? Might they help convince developers to consider moving applications from Swing to Pivot?
>
> Thanks for your feedback,
> Greg
>

Re: [RFC] Swing interop features

[Noel Grandin <no...@gmail.com>]

 Hi

I think the idea of adapter classes for Swing model data would be somewhat useful, but most Swing programmers don't seem
to bother to actually implement these interfaces themselves.

Visual consistency is a double edged sword. If things are obviously different, people live with it, but once you start
down the road towards consistency, users will get pickier and pickier.
I would rather we simply focussed on improving the Pivot L&F - for example, the default fonts are completely wrong on my
desktop.

-- Noel

Greg Brown wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> One of the things I have been focusing on for Pivot 2.0 is trying to make it easier for Swing developers to transition to Pivot. For example, DesktopApplicationContext now supports multiple (optionally modal) top-level frame windows, and it is now much easier to use Pivot components within an existing Swing application:
>
> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/pivot/trunk/examples/src/org/apache/pivot/examples/displays/
>
> http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/pivot/trunk/examples/src/org/apache/pivot/examples/swing/
>
> Another idea I had was to create a "Pivot" L&F for Swing. This L&F would mimic the appearance of the Terra theme, to help provide visual consistency for applications that use both Pivot and Swing. I also thought it might be useful to provide adapter classes for Swing model data (primarily ListModel, TableModel,TreeModel, and SpinnerModel). These would allow developers to begin using Pivot components without needing to rewrite all of their application internals.
>
> What do you think? Would such features be useful to a Swing developer? Might they help convince developers to consider moving applications from Swing to Pivot?
>
> Thanks for your feedback,
> Greg
>