Re: New "Java LDAP API" JSR progress

[Emmanuel Lecharny <el...@gmail.com>]

Hi,

Apache Directory Project committers have been approached by Sun last month
about our participation to a new JSR effort (Ldap API).

We are of course interested, and we agreed on participating to such an
effort. But we missed some required steps which are described on
http://www.apache.org/jcp/ (Thanks Ersin to pointing out those missed steps
...)

Basically :
1) As explained by Geir, we are bringing this to jcp-open now, so that ASF
is aware of this effort
2) I guess that each committers interested to participate must sign and fax
the NDA (http://www.apache.org/jcp/ApacheNDA.pdf)
3) It is very clear that if we are to work under one umbrella, it will be
ASF umbrella, not Apache Directory Project. If someone want to work on his
own name, I guess he should contact Sun directly.
4) So far, Alex Karasulu and myself have been contacted by Sun, but Ersin Er
is also interested by participating to this effort.

Here we are. I'm sorry for the broken communication, as this is the first
JSR I'm trying to work on, and as I had quite a lot of things to manage last
month. I hope that nothing wrong has been done so far...

Emmanuel

On 5/20/07, Geir Magnusson Jr. <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> I won't go thought the mail point by point, but here's what should
> happen :
>
> 1) Bring this up on jcp-open@apache.org
>
> 2) Yes, the ASF is a member of the JCP, and the "Apache Directory
> Project" isn't, so the ASF should be the representative entity.
>
> 3) If there are multiple people interested in working on this JSR,
> that can be accommodated.
>
> Thx for bringing this up.
>
> geir
>
> On May 20, 2007, at 10:51 AM, Ersin Er wrote:
>
> > On 5/20/07, Emmanuel Lecharny <el...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > > > As far as I remember, few of us had stated their interest in
> >> attending
> >> > > > such a project and Alex had talked about bringing this to the
> >> > > > jcpopen@a.o .
> >> > >
> >> > > Alex might have talked about jcpopen, but not to me. May be a
> >> private
> >> convo?
> >> > > Or my memory just can't restore this convo (I'm not using ADS
> >> internally
> >> :).
> >> >
> >> > Well, what I see from the previous thread is a message by Geir:
> >> >
> >> > "Please bring this up on jcp-open if you want to represent the
> >> ASF."
> >> >
> >> > And Alex responded:
> >> >
> >> > "Will do."
> >>
> >> The important word is 'will' ;) May be it would be better to
> >> switch to
> >> 'Done' ...
> >
> > Yes. But it's not about Alex or someone. If an ASF member will
> > represent ASF in JCP JSR, it should be discussed at jcpopen. I think
> > Geir does some organization at this point. It should have just been
> > there.
> >
> > The current process in the in the correct way.
> >
> >> > >  may be because you didn't subscribed when the work has
> >> started? AFAIR,
> >> > > there were a mail asking for people interested to participate,
> >> may be
> >> you
> >> > > didn't received this mail? Anyway, it's not to late ! (see
> >> reply to #3)
> >> >
> >> > I received this mail and responded as follows:
> >> >
> >> > "I am definitely interested in such an effort. We have some
> >> ideas on
> >> > novel models for the directory technology and we have enough
> >> > experience on what lacks in JNDI. I (with other ApacheDS folks)
> >> would
> >> > like to reflect our synergy onto this effort."
> >>
> >> Did you received any feedback ?
> >
> > No. Because I waited it to be discussed at jcpopen. I am a member of
> > the jcpopen list since then.
> >
> >> > > Just because it's allow us to avoid a painfull personnal
> >> subscription,
> >> as
> >> > > Apache is already a JCP member. So if you are from Apache, you
> >> can just
> >> > > enter the JCP right now :)
> >> >
> >> > My question is more about the Apache Directory Project umbrella
> >> which
> >> > should probably be Apache Software Foundation. (Well, ASF should
> >> have
> >> > some rules/conventions here?)
> >>
> >> I think the Apache umbrella is ASF, not directory.
> >
> > But it's written as Apache Directory Project there. So should we take
> > an action here?
> >
> >> > > > 4. What are our aims in this project? Do we yet have a
> >> proposal? What
> >> > > > direction do we desire? Should we discuss things also here
> >> or only at
> >> > > > dev.java.net ?
> >> > >
> >> > > The aim is to define a new API to be included in Java 7 as a LDAP
> >> dedicated
> >> > > API instead of a JNDI catch all API. The proposal has been
> >> submitted by
> >> Sun
> >> > > (Neil Willson). I think we should discuss about the project on
> >> the JCP
> >> ML,
> >> > > not specifically here.
> >> >
> >> > I think we should have some proposal, some ideas, some basic
> >> > requirements in this effort. Even if we'll talk individually
> >> there, we
> >> > should be talking the same things to some degree.
> >>
> >> At some point, we certainly have to discuss collectively about
> >> what we want
> >> to do. But I don't really think that discussing those points
> >> privately
> >> before pushing them to the JCP ML would help or slow down the
> >> process. I
> >> personnaly think it's better to openly discuss on JCP ML.
> >>
> >> > > Ersin, just ask Neil about adding you to the ML, the more
> >> Apaceh peeps
> >> on
> >> > > it, the better !
> >> >
> >> > I have just subscribed to the mailing lists now.
> >>
> >> Ok, cool !
> >>
> >> > > I'm sorry if you felt like left behind, it was not
> >> intentional. I guess
> >> > > something has been missed last month (don't know what exactly...
> >> > > Communication has not been good for sure)
> >> >
> >> > It's not me feeling left behind. I just wanted to bring this into
> >> attention.
> >>
> >> You did good. I think there were some communication pb , may be
> >> because it
> >> was just before Apache Con EU, and we were all very busy. Thanks
> >> to bring
> >> those points under the lights !
> >>
> >>  --
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Cordialement,
> >> Emmanuel Lécharny
> >> www.iktek.com
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ersin
>
>


-- 
Regards,
Cordialement,
Emmanuel Lécharny
www.iktek.com

Re: New "Java LDAP API" JSR progress

[Alex Karasulu <ak...@apache.org>]

Yeah this would be great if the NDA was not required by the time this EG is
formed.

Alex

On 5/23/07, Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org> wrote:
>
> On 5/20/07, Emmanuel Lecharny <el...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > 2) I guess that each committers interested to participate must sign and
> fax
> > the NDA (http://www.apache.org/jcp/ApacheNDA.pdf)
>
> I thought there is a proposal that ASF will not particpate in JSRs if
> NDAs are required?
> Perhaps not in effect now, but could be by the time this JSR takes off.
>
>
> Cheers
> Niclas
>

Re: New "Java LDAP API" JSR progress

[Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>]

On 5/20/07, Emmanuel Lecharny <el...@gmail.com> wrote:

> 2) I guess that each committers interested to participate must sign and fax
> the NDA (http://www.apache.org/jcp/ApacheNDA.pdf)

I thought there is a proposal that ASF will not particpate in JSRs if
NDAs are required?
Perhaps not in effect now, but could be by the time this JSR takes off.


Cheers
Niclas

Re: New "Java LDAP API" JSR progress

[robert burrell donkin <ro...@gmail.com>]

On 5/20/07, Emmanuel Lecharny <el...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Apache Directory Project committers have been approached by Sun last month
> about our participation to a new JSR effort (Ldap API).

there are some general interesting points about the participation of
apache committers in JSR efforts

IMHO committers participating in cannot really represent apache in the
sense of being a single spokesperson but rather in the sense of
someone who's expertise is acknowledged by apache. when a
specification lead decides to use NDAs then this effectively prevents
any apache representative passing on *any* official feedback on the
specification (since this would require discussion and VOTE with the
other committers).

it is possible to participate in JCP as an independent expert. it
would be interesting to know whether the specification lead was just
looking for independent experts or needed a representative of apache
directory in the sense of someone who could give collective feedback.

> We are of course interested, and we agreed on participating to such an
> effort. But we missed some required steps which are described on
> http://www.apache.org/jcp/ (Thanks Ersin to pointing out those missed steps
> ...)

apache is now concerned about the licensing terms adopted by a
minority pf specification leads. so, this list is no longer
sufficient.

it now appears that some participants in the JCP read the agreement we
made to allow our participation as allow specification leads to
unilaterally at any stage in the process add terms in the TCK
licensing that prevent open source implementations (in general) and
apache licensed implementations (in particular).

so, the main question for the lead must be: what is the license for the TCK?

a subsidiary question is: will the specification process be conducted openly?

- robert

Re: New "Java LDAP API" JSR progress

["Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>]

On May 20, 2007, at 11:19 AM, Emmanuel Lecharny wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Apache Directory Project committers have been approached by Sun  
> last month about our participation to a new JSR effort (Ldap API).
>
> We are of course interested, and we agreed on participating to such  
> an effort. But we missed some required steps which are described on  
> http://www.apache.org/jcp/ (Thanks Ersin to pointing out those  
> missed steps ...)
>
> Basically :
> 1) As explained by Geir, we are bringing this to jcp-open now, so  
> that ASF is aware of this effort
> 2) I guess that each committers interested to participate must sign  
> and fax the NDA (http://www.apache.org/jcp/ApacheNDA.pdf)
> 3) It is very clear that if we are to work under one umbrella, it  
> will be ASF umbrella, not Apache Directory Project. If someone want  
> to work on his own name, I guess he should contact Sun directly.

yes, and that has happened before.  Nothing wrong with that.

> 4) So far, Alex Karasulu and myself have been contacted by Sun, but  
> Ersin Er is also interested by participating to this effort.
>
> Here we are. I'm sorry for the broken communication, as this is the  
> first JSR I'm trying to work on, and as I had quite a lot of things  
> to manage last month. I hope that nothing wrong has been done so  
> far...

Nothing at all. The JSR doesn't exist yet.

>
> Emmanuel
>
> On 5/20/07, Geir Magnusson Jr. <ge...@apache.org> wrote: I won't go  
> thought the mail point by point, but here's what should
> happen :
>
> 1) Bring this up on jcp-open@apache.org
>
> 2) Yes, the ASF is a member of the JCP, and the "Apache Directory
> Project" isn't, so the ASF should be the representative entity.
>
> 3) If there are multiple people interested in working on this JSR,
> that can be accommodated.
>
> Thx for bringing this up.
>
> geir
>
> On May 20, 2007, at 10:51 AM, Ersin Er wrote:
>
> > On 5/20/07, Emmanuel Lecharny <el...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > > > As far as I remember, few of us had stated their interest in
> >> attending
> >> > > > such a project and Alex had talked about bringing this to the
> >> > > > jcpopen@a.o .
> >> > >
> >> > > Alex might have talked about jcpopen, but not to me. May be a
> >> private
> >> convo?
> >> > > Or my memory just can't restore this convo (I'm not using ADS
> >> internally
> >> :).
> >> >
> >> > Well, what I see from the previous thread is a message by Geir:
> >> >
> >> > "Please bring this up on jcp-open if you want to represent the
> >> ASF."
> >> >
> >> > And Alex responded:
> >> >
> >> > "Will do."
> >>
> >> The important word is 'will' ;) May be it would be better to
> >> switch to
> >> 'Done' ...
> >
> > Yes. But it's not about Alex or someone. If an ASF member will
> > represent ASF in JCP JSR, it should be discussed at jcpopen. I think
> > Geir does some organization at this point. It should have just been
> > there.
> >
> > The current process in the in the correct way.
> >
> >> > >  may be because you didn't subscribed when the work has
> >> started? AFAIR,
> >> > > there were a mail asking for people interested to participate,
> >> may be
> >> you
> >> > > didn't received this mail? Anyway, it's not to late ! (see
> >> reply to #3)
> >> >
> >> > I received this mail and responded as follows:
> >> >
> >> > "I am definitely interested in such an effort. We have some
> >> ideas on
> >> > novel models for the directory technology and we have enough
> >> > experience on what lacks in JNDI. I (with other ApacheDS folks)
> >> would
> >> > like to reflect our synergy onto this effort."
> >>
> >> Did you received any feedback ?
> >
> > No. Because I waited it to be discussed at jcpopen. I am a member of
> > the jcpopen list since then.
> >
> >> > > Just because it's allow us to avoid a painfull personnal
> >> subscription,
> >> as
> >> > > Apache is already a JCP member. So if you are from Apache, you
> >> can just
> >> > > enter the JCP right now :)
> >> >
> >> > My question is more about the Apache Directory Project umbrella
> >> which
> >> > should probably be Apache Software Foundation. (Well, ASF should
> >> have
> >> > some rules/conventions here?)
> >>
> >> I think the Apache umbrella is ASF, not directory.
> >
> > But it's written as Apache Directory Project there. So should we  
> take
> > an action here?
> >
> >> > > > 4. What are our aims in this project? Do we yet have a
> >> proposal? What
> >> > > > direction do we desire? Should we discuss things also here
> >> or only at
> >> > > > dev.java.net ?
> >> > >
> >> > > The aim is to define a new API to be included in Java 7 as a  
> LDAP
> >> dedicated
> >> > > API instead of a JNDI catch all API. The proposal has been
> >> submitted by
> >> Sun
> >> > > (Neil Willson). I think we should discuss about the project on
> >> the JCP
> >> ML,
> >> > > not specifically here.
> >> >
> >> > I think we should have some proposal, some ideas, some basic
> >> > requirements in this effort. Even if we'll talk individually
> >> there, we
> >> > should be talking the same things to some degree.
> >>
> >> At some point, we certainly have to discuss collectively about
> >> what we want
> >> to do. But I don't really think that discussing those points
> >> privately
> >> before pushing them to the JCP ML would help or slow down the
> >> process. I
> >> personnaly think it's better to openly discuss on JCP ML.
> >>
> >> > > Ersin, just ask Neil about adding you to the ML, the more
> >> Apaceh peeps
> >> on
> >> > > it, the better !
> >> >
> >> > I have just subscribed to the mailing lists now.
> >>
> >> Ok, cool !
> >>
> >> > > I'm sorry if you felt like left behind, it was not
> >> intentional. I guess
> >> > > something has been missed last month (don't know what  
> exactly...
> >> > > Communication has not been good for sure)
> >> >
> >> > It's not me feeling left behind. I just wanted to bring this into
> >> attention.
> >>
> >> You did good. I think there were some communication pb , may be
> >> because it
> >> was just before Apache Con EU, and we were all very busy. Thanks
> >> to bring
> >> those points under the lights !
> >>
> >>  --
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Cordialement,
> >> Emmanuel Lécharny
> >> www.iktek.com
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ersin
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Regards,
> Cordialement,
> Emmanuel Lécharny
> www.iktek.com