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Posted to dev@flink.apache.org by Dawid Wysakowicz <dw...@apache.org> on 2019/12/03 14:15:45 UTC
[DISCUSS] Voting from apache.org addresses
Hi,
I wanted to reach out primarily to the Flink's committers. I think
whenever we cast a vote on a proposal, is it a FLIP, release candidate
or any other proposal, we should use our apache.org email address.
It is not an easy task to check if a person voting is a committer/PMC if
we do not work with him/her on a daily basis. This is important for
verifying if a vote is binding or not.
Best,
Dawid
Re: [DISCUSS] Voting from apache.org addresses
Posted by Till Rohrmann <tr...@apache.org>.
+1 for the proposal.
Cheers,
Till
On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 12:43 PM Dian Fu <di...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Dawid,
>
> Thanks for the reply. Counting all the votes from non apache addresses as
> non-binding makes sense. Just as Jark mentioned, we can always remind the
> committer/PMC to vote again to use the apache address if necessary (i.e.
> when the number of binding votes is not enough).
>
> Thanks,
> Dian
>
> > 在 2019年12月4日，下午7:27，Kurt Young <ku...@apache.org> 写道：
> >
> > +1 (from my apache email ;-))
> >
> > Best,
> > Kurt
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 7:22 PM Jark Wu <im...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I'm +1 on this proposal.
> >>
> >> Regarding to the case that Dian mentioned, we can reminder the
> >> committer/PMC to vote again use the apache email,
> >> and of course the non-apache vote is counted as non-binding.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Jark
> >>
> >> On Wed, 4 Dec 2019 at 17:33, Dawid Wysakowicz <dw...@apache.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Dian,
> >>>
> >>> I don't want to be very strict, but I think it should be counted as
> >>> non-binding, if it comes from non apache address, yes.
> >>>
> >>> Anybody should be able to verify a vote. Moreover I think this the only
> >>> way to "encourage" all committers to use their apache addresses ;)
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>>
> >>> Dawid
> >>>
> >>> On 04/12/2019 10:26, Dian Fu wrote:
> >>>> Thanks for your explanation Dawid! It makes sense to me now. +1.
> >>>>
> >>>> Just one minor question: Does this mean that if a committer/PMC
> >>> accidentally votes using the non apache email, even if the person who
> >>> summarizes the votes clearly KNOWS who he/she is, that vote will still
> be
> >>> counted as non-binding?
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> Dian
> >>>>
> >>>>> 在 2019年12月4日，下午5:13，Aljoscha Krettek <al...@apache.org> 写道：
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Very sensible! +1
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 4. Dec 2019, at 10:02, Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I believe this to be a sensible approach by Dawid; +1.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 04/12/2019 09:04, Dawid Wysakowicz wrote:
> >>>>>>> Hi all,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Sorry I think I was not clear enough on my initial e-mail. Let me
> >>> first clarify two things and later on try to rephrase my initial
> >> suggestion.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 1. I do not want to count all votes from @apache.org addresses as
> >>> binding
> >>>>>>> 2. I do not want to discourage people that do not have @apache.org
> >>>>>>> address from voting
> >>>>>>> 3. What I said does not change anything for non-committers/non-PMCs
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> What I meant is that if you are a committer/PMC please use an
> >>> apache.org address because then the person that summarizes the votes
> can
> >>> check in the apache directory if a person with that address is a
> >>> committer/PMC in flink project. Otherwise if a committer uses a
> different
> >>> address there is no way to check if that person is a committer/PMC or
> >> not.
> >>> It does not mean though that if you vote from apache.org this vote is
> >>> automatically binding. It just allows us to check if it is.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> To elaborate on Xuefu's example. It's absolutely fine for you to
> use
> >>> an apache address for voting. I will still check if you are a committer
> >> or
> >>> not. But take me (or any other committer) for example. If I use my
> >>> non-apache address for a vote and the person verifying the vote does
> not
> >>> know me and my address, it is not easy for that person to verify if I
> am
> >> a
> >>> committer or not.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Also it does not mean that other people are not allowed to vote.
> You
> >>> can vote from other addresses, but those votes will be counted as
> >>> non-binding. This does not change anything for non-committers/non-PMC.
> >>> However if you are a committer and vote from non apache address your
> vote
> >>> will be non-binding, because we cannot verify you are indeed a
> committer
> >>> (we might don't know your other address).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I agree the additional information (binding, non-binding) in a vote
> >>> helps, but it still should be verified. People make mistakes.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I hope this clears it up a bit.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Dawid
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 04/12/2019 04:58, Dian Fu wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Thanks Dawid for start this discussion.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I have the same feeling with Xuefu and Jingsong. Besides that,
> >>> according to the bylaws, for some kinds of votes, only the votes from
> >>> active PMC members are binding, such as product release. So an email
> >>> address doesn't help here. Even if a vote is from a Flink committer, it
> >> is
> >>> still non-binding.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>> Dian
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> 在 2019年12月4日，上午10:37，Jingsong Lee<lz...@apache.org> 写道：
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Thanks Dawid for driving this discussion.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> +1 to Xuefu's viewpoint.
> >>>>>>>>> I am not a Flink committer, but sometimes I use apache email
> >>> address to
> >>>>>>>>> send email.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Another way is that we require the binding ticket to must contain
> >>> "binding".
> >>>>>>>>> Otherwise it must be a "non-binding" ticket.
> >>>>>>>>> In this way, we can let lazy people continue voting without any
> >>> suffix too.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>>> Jingsong Lee
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 3:58 AM Xuefu Z<us...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Dawid,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks for initiating this discussion. I understand the problem
> >> you
> >>>>>>>>>> described, but the solution might not work as having an
> >> apache.org
> >>> email
> >>>>>>>>>> address doesn't necessary mean it's from a Flink committer. This
> >>> certainly
> >>>>>>>>>> applies to me.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> It probably helps for the voters to identify themselves by
> >>> specifying
> >>>>>>>>>> either "binding" or "non-binding", though I understand this
> >> cannot
> >>> be
> >>>>>>>>>> enforced but serves a general guideline.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>>>>> Xuefu
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 6:15 AM Dawid Wysakowicz<
> >>> dwysakowicz@apache.org>
> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I wanted to reach out primarily to the Flink's committers. I
> >> think
> >>>>>>>>>>> whenever we cast a vote on a proposal, is it a FLIP, release
> >>> candidate
> >>>>>>>>>>> or any other proposal, we should use our apache.org email
> >>> address.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> It is not an easy task to check if a person voting is a
> >>> committer/PMC if
> >>>>>>>>>>> we do not work with him/her on a daily basis. This is important
> >>> for
> >>>>>>>>>>> verifying if a vote is binding or not.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Dawid
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>> Xuefu Zhang
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> "In Honey We Trust!"
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> Best, Jingsong Lee
> >>>>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Voting from apache.org addresses
Posted by Dian Fu <di...@gmail.com>.
Hi Dawid,
Thanks for the reply. Counting all the votes from non apache addresses as non-binding makes sense. Just as Jark mentioned, we can always remind the committer/PMC to vote again to use the apache address if necessary (i.e. when the number of binding votes is not enough).
Thanks,
Dian
> 在 2019年12月4日，下午7:27，Kurt Young <ku...@apache.org> 写道：
>
> +1 (from my apache email ;-))
>
> Best,
> Kurt
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 7:22 PM Jark Wu <im...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm +1 on this proposal.
>>
>> Regarding to the case that Dian mentioned, we can reminder the
>> committer/PMC to vote again use the apache email,
>> and of course the non-apache vote is counted as non-binding.
>>
>> Best,
>> Jark
>>
>> On Wed, 4 Dec 2019 at 17:33, Dawid Wysakowicz <dw...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Dian,
>>>
>>> I don't want to be very strict, but I think it should be counted as
>>> non-binding, if it comes from non apache address, yes.
>>>
>>> Anybody should be able to verify a vote. Moreover I think this the only
>>> way to "encourage" all committers to use their apache addresses ;)
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Dawid
>>>
>>> On 04/12/2019 10:26, Dian Fu wrote:
>>>> Thanks for your explanation Dawid! It makes sense to me now. +1.
>>>>
>>>> Just one minor question: Does this mean that if a committer/PMC
>>> accidentally votes using the non apache email, even if the person who
>>> summarizes the votes clearly KNOWS who he/she is, that vote will still be
>>> counted as non-binding?
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Dian
>>>>
>>>>> 在 2019年12月4日，下午5:13，Aljoscha Krettek <al...@apache.org> 写道：
>>>>>
>>>>> Very sensible! +1
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4. Dec 2019, at 10:02, Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I believe this to be a sensible approach by Dawid; +1.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 04/12/2019 09:04, Dawid Wysakowicz wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sorry I think I was not clear enough on my initial e-mail. Let me
>>> first clarify two things and later on try to rephrase my initial
>> suggestion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. I do not want to count all votes from @apache.org addresses as
>>> binding
>>>>>>> 2. I do not want to discourage people that do not have @apache.org
>>>>>>> address from voting
>>>>>>> 3. What I said does not change anything for non-committers/non-PMCs
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What I meant is that if you are a committer/PMC please use an
>>> apache.org address because then the person that summarizes the votes can
>>> check in the apache directory if a person with that address is a
>>> committer/PMC in flink project. Otherwise if a committer uses a different
>>> address there is no way to check if that person is a committer/PMC or
>> not.
>>> It does not mean though that if you vote from apache.org this vote is
>>> automatically binding. It just allows us to check if it is.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To elaborate on Xuefu's example. It's absolutely fine for you to use
>>> an apache address for voting. I will still check if you are a committer
>> or
>>> not. But take me (or any other committer) for example. If I use my
>>> non-apache address for a vote and the person verifying the vote does not
>>> know me and my address, it is not easy for that person to verify if I am
>> a
>>> committer or not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also it does not mean that other people are not allowed to vote. You
>>> can vote from other addresses, but those votes will be counted as
>>> non-binding. This does not change anything for non-committers/non-PMC.
>>> However if you are a committer and vote from non apache address your vote
>>> will be non-binding, because we cannot verify you are indeed a committer
>>> (we might don't know your other address).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree the additional information (binding, non-binding) in a vote
>>> helps, but it still should be verified. People make mistakes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I hope this clears it up a bit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dawid
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 04/12/2019 04:58, Dian Fu wrote:
>>>>>>>> Thanks Dawid for start this discussion.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have the same feeling with Xuefu and Jingsong. Besides that,
>>> according to the bylaws, for some kinds of votes, only the votes from
>>> active PMC members are binding, such as product release. So an email
>>> address doesn't help here. Even if a vote is from a Flink committer, it
>> is
>>> still non-binding.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Dian
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 在 2019年12月4日，上午10:37，Jingsong Lee<lz...@apache.org> 写道：
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks Dawid for driving this discussion.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> +1 to Xuefu's viewpoint.
>>>>>>>>> I am not a Flink committer, but sometimes I use apache email
>>> address to
>>>>>>>>> send email.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Another way is that we require the binding ticket to must contain
>>> "binding".
>>>>>>>>> Otherwise it must be a "non-binding" ticket.
>>>>>>>>> In this way, we can let lazy people continue voting without any
>>> suffix too.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>> Jingsong Lee
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 3:58 AM Xuefu Z<us...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Dawid,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for initiating this discussion. I understand the problem
>> you
>>>>>>>>>> described, but the solution might not work as having an
>> apache.org
>>> email
>>>>>>>>>> address doesn't necessary mean it's from a Flink committer. This
>>> certainly
>>>>>>>>>> applies to me.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It probably helps for the voters to identify themselves by
>>> specifying
>>>>>>>>>> either "binding" or "non-binding", though I understand this
>> cannot
>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> enforced but serves a general guideline.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>> Xuefu
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 6:15 AM Dawid Wysakowicz<
>>> dwysakowicz@apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I wanted to reach out primarily to the Flink's committers. I
>> think
>>>>>>>>>>> whenever we cast a vote on a proposal, is it a FLIP, release
>>> candidate
>>>>>>>>>>> or any other proposal, we should use our apache.org email
>>> address.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It is not an easy task to check if a person voting is a
>>> committer/PMC if
>>>>>>>>>>> we do not work with him/her on a daily basis. This is important
>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> verifying if a vote is binding or not.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Dawid
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Xuefu Zhang
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "In Honey We Trust!"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Best, Jingsong Lee
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
Re: [DISCUSS] Voting from apache.org addresses
Posted by Kurt Young <ku...@apache.org>.
+1 (from my apache email ;-))
Best,
Kurt
On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 7:22 PM Jark Wu <im...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm +1 on this proposal.
>
> Regarding to the case that Dian mentioned, we can reminder the
> committer/PMC to vote again use the apache email,
> and of course the non-apache vote is counted as non-binding.
>
> Best,
> Jark
>
> On Wed, 4 Dec 2019 at 17:33, Dawid Wysakowicz <dw...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Dian,
> >
> > I don't want to be very strict, but I think it should be counted as
> > non-binding, if it comes from non apache address, yes.
> >
> > Anybody should be able to verify a vote. Moreover I think this the only
> > way to "encourage" all committers to use their apache addresses ;)
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Dawid
> >
> > On 04/12/2019 10:26, Dian Fu wrote:
> > > Thanks for your explanation Dawid! It makes sense to me now. +1.
> > >
> > > Just one minor question: Does this mean that if a committer/PMC
> > accidentally votes using the non apache email, even if the person who
> > summarizes the votes clearly KNOWS who he/she is, that vote will still be
> > counted as non-binding?
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Dian
> > >
> > >> 在 2019年12月4日，下午5:13，Aljoscha Krettek <al...@apache.org> 写道：
> > >>
> > >> Very sensible! +1
> > >>
> > >>> On 4. Dec 2019, at 10:02, Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> I believe this to be a sensible approach by Dawid; +1.
> > >>>
> > >>> On 04/12/2019 09:04, Dawid Wysakowicz wrote:
> > >>>> Hi all,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Sorry I think I was not clear enough on my initial e-mail. Let me
> > first clarify two things and later on try to rephrase my initial
> suggestion.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> 1. I do not want to count all votes from @apache.org addresses as
> > binding
> > >>>> 2. I do not want to discourage people that do not have @apache.org
> > >>>> address from voting
> > >>>> 3. What I said does not change anything for non-committers/non-PMCs
> > >>>>
> > >>>> What I meant is that if you are a committer/PMC please use an
> > apache.org address because then the person that summarizes the votes can
> > check in the apache directory if a person with that address is a
> > committer/PMC in flink project. Otherwise if a committer uses a different
> > address there is no way to check if that person is a committer/PMC or
> not.
> > It does not mean though that if you vote from apache.org this vote is
> > automatically binding. It just allows us to check if it is.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> To elaborate on Xuefu's example. It's absolutely fine for you to use
> > an apache address for voting. I will still check if you are a committer
> or
> > not. But take me (or any other committer) for example. If I use my
> > non-apache address for a vote and the person verifying the vote does not
> > know me and my address, it is not easy for that person to verify if I am
> a
> > committer or not.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Also it does not mean that other people are not allowed to vote. You
> > can vote from other addresses, but those votes will be counted as
> > non-binding. This does not change anything for non-committers/non-PMC.
> > However if you are a committer and vote from non apache address your vote
> > will be non-binding, because we cannot verify you are indeed a committer
> > (we might don't know your other address).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I agree the additional information (binding, non-binding) in a vote
> > helps, but it still should be verified. People make mistakes.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I hope this clears it up a bit.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Best,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Dawid
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On 04/12/2019 04:58, Dian Fu wrote:
> > >>>>> Thanks Dawid for start this discussion.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I have the same feeling with Xuefu and Jingsong. Besides that,
> > according to the bylaws, for some kinds of votes, only the votes from
> > active PMC members are binding, such as product release. So an email
> > address doesn't help here. Even if a vote is from a Flink committer, it
> is
> > still non-binding.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>> Dian
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> 在 2019年12月4日，上午10:37，Jingsong Lee<lz...@apache.org> 写道：
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Thanks Dawid for driving this discussion.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> +1 to Xuefu's viewpoint.
> > >>>>>> I am not a Flink committer, but sometimes I use apache email
> > address to
> > >>>>>> send email.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Another way is that we require the binding ticket to must contain
> > "binding".
> > >>>>>> Otherwise it must be a "non-binding" ticket.
> > >>>>>> In this way, we can let lazy people continue voting without any
> > suffix too.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Best,
> > >>>>>> Jingsong Lee
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 3:58 AM Xuefu Z<us...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Hi Dawid,
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Thanks for initiating this discussion. I understand the problem
> you
> > >>>>>>> described, but the solution might not work as having an
> apache.org
> > email
> > >>>>>>> address doesn't necessary mean it's from a Flink committer. This
> > certainly
> > >>>>>>> applies to me.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> It probably helps for the voters to identify themselves by
> > specifying
> > >>>>>>> either "binding" or "non-binding", though I understand this
> cannot
> > be
> > >>>>>>> enforced but serves a general guideline.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>>>> Xuefu
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 6:15 AM Dawid Wysakowicz<
> > dwysakowicz@apache.org>
> > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Hi,
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> I wanted to reach out primarily to the Flink's committers. I
> think
> > >>>>>>>> whenever we cast a vote on a proposal, is it a FLIP, release
> > candidate
> > >>>>>>>> or any other proposal, we should use our apache.org email
> > address.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> It is not an easy task to check if a person voting is a
> > committer/PMC if
> > >>>>>>>> we do not work with him/her on a daily basis. This is important
> > for
> > >>>>>>>> verifying if a vote is binding or not.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Best,
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Dawid
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>> Xuefu Zhang
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> "In Honey We Trust!"
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> --
> > >>>>>> Best, Jingsong Lee
> > >>>
> >
> >
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Voting from apache.org addresses
Posted by Jark Wu <im...@gmail.com>.
I'm +1 on this proposal.
Regarding to the case that Dian mentioned, we can reminder the
committer/PMC to vote again use the apache email,
and of course the non-apache vote is counted as non-binding.
Best,
Jark
On Wed, 4 Dec 2019 at 17:33, Dawid Wysakowicz <dw...@apache.org>
wrote:
> Hi Dian,
>
> I don't want to be very strict, but I think it should be counted as
> non-binding, if it comes from non apache address, yes.
>
> Anybody should be able to verify a vote. Moreover I think this the only
> way to "encourage" all committers to use their apache addresses ;)
>
> Best,
>
> Dawid
>
> On 04/12/2019 10:26, Dian Fu wrote:
> > Thanks for your explanation Dawid! It makes sense to me now. +1.
> >
> > Just one minor question: Does this mean that if a committer/PMC
> accidentally votes using the non apache email, even if the person who
> summarizes the votes clearly KNOWS who he/she is, that vote will still be
> counted as non-binding?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Dian
> >
> >> 在 2019年12月4日，下午5:13，Aljoscha Krettek <al...@apache.org> 写道：
> >>
> >> Very sensible! +1
> >>
> >>> On 4. Dec 2019, at 10:02, Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I believe this to be a sensible approach by Dawid; +1.
> >>>
> >>> On 04/12/2019 09:04, Dawid Wysakowicz wrote:
> >>>> Hi all,
> >>>>
> >>>> Sorry I think I was not clear enough on my initial e-mail. Let me
> first clarify two things and later on try to rephrase my initial suggestion.
> >>>>
> >>>> 1. I do not want to count all votes from @apache.org addresses as
> binding
> >>>> 2. I do not want to discourage people that do not have @apache.org
> >>>> address from voting
> >>>> 3. What I said does not change anything for non-committers/non-PMCs
> >>>>
> >>>> What I meant is that if you are a committer/PMC please use an
> apache.org address because then the person that summarizes the votes can
> check in the apache directory if a person with that address is a
> committer/PMC in flink project. Otherwise if a committer uses a different
> address there is no way to check if that person is a committer/PMC or not.
> It does not mean though that if you vote from apache.org this vote is
> automatically binding. It just allows us to check if it is.
> >>>>
> >>>> To elaborate on Xuefu's example. It's absolutely fine for you to use
> an apache address for voting. I will still check if you are a committer or
> not. But take me (or any other committer) for example. If I use my
> non-apache address for a vote and the person verifying the vote does not
> know me and my address, it is not easy for that person to verify if I am a
> committer or not.
> >>>>
> >>>> Also it does not mean that other people are not allowed to vote. You
> can vote from other addresses, but those votes will be counted as
> non-binding. This does not change anything for non-committers/non-PMC.
> However if you are a committer and vote from non apache address your vote
> will be non-binding, because we cannot verify you are indeed a committer
> (we might don't know your other address).
> >>>>
> >>>> I agree the additional information (binding, non-binding) in a vote
> helps, but it still should be verified. People make mistakes.
> >>>>
> >>>> I hope this clears it up a bit.
> >>>>
> >>>> Best,
> >>>>
> >>>> Dawid
> >>>>
> >>>> On 04/12/2019 04:58, Dian Fu wrote:
> >>>>> Thanks Dawid for start this discussion.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have the same feeling with Xuefu and Jingsong. Besides that,
> according to the bylaws, for some kinds of votes, only the votes from
> active PMC members are binding, such as product release. So an email
> address doesn't help here. Even if a vote is from a Flink committer, it is
> still non-binding.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>> Dian
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> 在 2019年12月4日，上午10:37，Jingsong Lee<lz...@apache.org> 写道：
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks Dawid for driving this discussion.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> +1 to Xuefu's viewpoint.
> >>>>>> I am not a Flink committer, but sometimes I use apache email
> address to
> >>>>>> send email.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Another way is that we require the binding ticket to must contain
> "binding".
> >>>>>> Otherwise it must be a "non-binding" ticket.
> >>>>>> In this way, we can let lazy people continue voting without any
> suffix too.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>> Jingsong Lee
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 3:58 AM Xuefu Z<us...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi Dawid,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks for initiating this discussion. I understand the problem you
> >>>>>>> described, but the solution might not work as having an apache.org
> email
> >>>>>>> address doesn't necessary mean it's from a Flink committer. This
> certainly
> >>>>>>> applies to me.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> It probably helps for the voters to identify themselves by
> specifying
> >>>>>>> either "binding" or "non-binding", though I understand this cannot
> be
> >>>>>>> enforced but serves a general guideline.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>> Xuefu
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 6:15 AM Dawid Wysakowicz<
> dwysakowicz@apache.org>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I wanted to reach out primarily to the Flink's committers. I think
> >>>>>>>> whenever we cast a vote on a proposal, is it a FLIP, release
> candidate
> >>>>>>>> or any other proposal, we should use our apache.org email
> address.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> It is not an easy task to check if a person voting is a
> committer/PMC if
> >>>>>>>> we do not work with him/her on a daily basis. This is important
> for
> >>>>>>>> verifying if a vote is binding or not.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Dawid
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Xuefu Zhang
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "In Honey We Trust!"
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Best, Jingsong Lee
> >>>
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Voting from apache.org addresses
Posted by Dawid Wysakowicz <dw...@apache.org>.
Hi Dian,
I don't want to be very strict, but I think it should be counted as
non-binding, if it comes from non apache address, yes.
Anybody should be able to verify a vote. Moreover I think this the only
way to "encourage" all committers to use their apache addresses ;)
Best,
Dawid
On 04/12/2019 10:26, Dian Fu wrote:
> Thanks for your explanation Dawid! It makes sense to me now. +1.
>
> Just one minor question: Does this mean that if a committer/PMC accidentally votes using the non apache email, even if the person who summarizes the votes clearly KNOWS who he/she is, that vote will still be counted as non-binding?
>
> Regards,
> Dian
>
>> 在 2019年12月4日，下午5:13，Aljoscha Krettek <al...@apache.org> 写道：
>>
>> Very sensible! +1
>>
>>> On 4. Dec 2019, at 10:02, Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> I believe this to be a sensible approach by Dawid; +1.
>>>
>>> On 04/12/2019 09:04, Dawid Wysakowicz wrote:
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> Sorry I think I was not clear enough on my initial e-mail. Let me first clarify two things and later on try to rephrase my initial suggestion.
>>>>
>>>> 1. I do not want to count all votes from @apache.org addresses as binding
>>>> 2. I do not want to discourage people that do not have @apache.org
>>>> address from voting
>>>> 3. What I said does not change anything for non-committers/non-PMCs
>>>>
>>>> What I meant is that if you are a committer/PMC please use an apache.org address because then the person that summarizes the votes can check in the apache directory if a person with that address is a committer/PMC in flink project. Otherwise if a committer uses a different address there is no way to check if that person is a committer/PMC or not. It does not mean though that if you vote from apache.org this vote is automatically binding. It just allows us to check if it is.
>>>>
>>>> To elaborate on Xuefu's example. It's absolutely fine for you to use an apache address for voting. I will still check if you are a committer or not. But take me (or any other committer) for example. If I use my non-apache address for a vote and the person verifying the vote does not know me and my address, it is not easy for that person to verify if I am a committer or not.
>>>>
>>>> Also it does not mean that other people are not allowed to vote. You can vote from other addresses, but those votes will be counted as non-binding. This does not change anything for non-committers/non-PMC. However if you are a committer and vote from non apache address your vote will be non-binding, because we cannot verify you are indeed a committer (we might don't know your other address).
>>>>
>>>> I agree the additional information (binding, non-binding) in a vote helps, but it still should be verified. People make mistakes.
>>>>
>>>> I hope this clears it up a bit.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Dawid
>>>>
>>>> On 04/12/2019 04:58, Dian Fu wrote:
>>>>> Thanks Dawid for start this discussion.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have the same feeling with Xuefu and Jingsong. Besides that, according to the bylaws, for some kinds of votes, only the votes from active PMC members are binding, such as product release. So an email address doesn't help here. Even if a vote is from a Flink committer, it is still non-binding.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Dian
>>>>>
>>>>>> 在 2019年12月4日，上午10:37，Jingsong Lee<lz...@apache.org> 写道：
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks Dawid for driving this discussion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1 to Xuefu's viewpoint.
>>>>>> I am not a Flink committer, but sometimes I use apache email address to
>>>>>> send email.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another way is that we require the binding ticket to must contain "binding".
>>>>>> Otherwise it must be a "non-binding" ticket.
>>>>>> In this way, we can let lazy people continue voting without any suffix too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> Jingsong Lee
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 3:58 AM Xuefu Z<us...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Dawid,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for initiating this discussion. I understand the problem you
>>>>>>> described, but the solution might not work as having an apache.org email
>>>>>>> address doesn't necessary mean it's from a Flink committer. This certainly
>>>>>>> applies to me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It probably helps for the voters to identify themselves by specifying
>>>>>>> either "binding" or "non-binding", though I understand this cannot be
>>>>>>> enforced but serves a general guideline.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Xuefu
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 6:15 AM Dawid Wysakowicz<dw...@apache.org>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wanted to reach out primarily to the Flink's committers. I think
>>>>>>>> whenever we cast a vote on a proposal, is it a FLIP, release candidate
>>>>>>>> or any other proposal, we should use our apache.org email address.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is not an easy task to check if a person voting is a committer/PMC if
>>>>>>>> we do not work with him/her on a daily basis. This is important for
>>>>>>>> verifying if a vote is binding or not.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dawid
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Xuefu Zhang
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "In Honey We Trust!"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Best, Jingsong Lee
>>>
Re: [DISCUSS] Voting from apache.org addresses
Posted by Dian Fu <di...@gmail.com>.
Thanks for your explanation Dawid! It makes sense to me now. +1.
Just one minor question: Does this mean that if a committer/PMC accidentally votes using the non apache email, even if the person who summarizes the votes clearly KNOWS who he/she is, that vote will still be counted as non-binding?
Regards,
Dian
> 在 2019年12月4日，下午5:13，Aljoscha Krettek <al...@apache.org> 写道：
>
> Very sensible! +1
>
>> On 4. Dec 2019, at 10:02, Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> I believe this to be a sensible approach by Dawid; +1.
>>
>> On 04/12/2019 09:04, Dawid Wysakowicz wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> Sorry I think I was not clear enough on my initial e-mail. Let me first clarify two things and later on try to rephrase my initial suggestion.
>>>
>>> 1. I do not want to count all votes from @apache.org addresses as binding
>>> 2. I do not want to discourage people that do not have @apache.org
>>> address from voting
>>> 3. What I said does not change anything for non-committers/non-PMCs
>>>
>>> What I meant is that if you are a committer/PMC please use an apache.org address because then the person that summarizes the votes can check in the apache directory if a person with that address is a committer/PMC in flink project. Otherwise if a committer uses a different address there is no way to check if that person is a committer/PMC or not. It does not mean though that if you vote from apache.org this vote is automatically binding. It just allows us to check if it is.
>>>
>>> To elaborate on Xuefu's example. It's absolutely fine for you to use an apache address for voting. I will still check if you are a committer or not. But take me (or any other committer) for example. If I use my non-apache address for a vote and the person verifying the vote does not know me and my address, it is not easy for that person to verify if I am a committer or not.
>>>
>>> Also it does not mean that other people are not allowed to vote. You can vote from other addresses, but those votes will be counted as non-binding. This does not change anything for non-committers/non-PMC. However if you are a committer and vote from non apache address your vote will be non-binding, because we cannot verify you are indeed a committer (we might don't know your other address).
>>>
>>> I agree the additional information (binding, non-binding) in a vote helps, but it still should be verified. People make mistakes.
>>>
>>> I hope this clears it up a bit.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Dawid
>>>
>>> On 04/12/2019 04:58, Dian Fu wrote:
>>>> Thanks Dawid for start this discussion.
>>>>
>>>> I have the same feeling with Xuefu and Jingsong. Besides that, according to the bylaws, for some kinds of votes, only the votes from active PMC members are binding, such as product release. So an email address doesn't help here. Even if a vote is from a Flink committer, it is still non-binding.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Dian
>>>>
>>>>> 在 2019年12月4日，上午10:37，Jingsong Lee<lz...@apache.org> 写道：
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks Dawid for driving this discussion.
>>>>>
>>>>> +1 to Xuefu's viewpoint.
>>>>> I am not a Flink committer, but sometimes I use apache email address to
>>>>> send email.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another way is that we require the binding ticket to must contain "binding".
>>>>> Otherwise it must be a "non-binding" ticket.
>>>>> In this way, we can let lazy people continue voting without any suffix too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Jingsong Lee
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 3:58 AM Xuefu Z<us...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Dawid,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for initiating this discussion. I understand the problem you
>>>>>> described, but the solution might not work as having an apache.org email
>>>>>> address doesn't necessary mean it's from a Flink committer. This certainly
>>>>>> applies to me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It probably helps for the voters to identify themselves by specifying
>>>>>> either "binding" or "non-binding", though I understand this cannot be
>>>>>> enforced but serves a general guideline.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Xuefu
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 6:15 AM Dawid Wysakowicz<dw...@apache.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wanted to reach out primarily to the Flink's committers. I think
>>>>>>> whenever we cast a vote on a proposal, is it a FLIP, release candidate
>>>>>>> or any other proposal, we should use our apache.org email address.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is not an easy task to check if a person voting is a committer/PMC if
>>>>>>> we do not work with him/her on a daily basis. This is important for
>>>>>>> verifying if a vote is binding or not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dawid
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Xuefu Zhang
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "In Honey We Trust!"
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Best, Jingsong Lee
>>
>>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Voting from apache.org addresses
Posted by Aljoscha Krettek <al...@apache.org>.
Very sensible! +1
> On 4. Dec 2019, at 10:02, Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> I believe this to be a sensible approach by Dawid; +1.
>
> On 04/12/2019 09:04, Dawid Wysakowicz wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Sorry I think I was not clear enough on my initial e-mail. Let me first clarify two things and later on try to rephrase my initial suggestion.
>>
>> 1. I do not want to count all votes from @apache.org addresses as binding
>> 2. I do not want to discourage people that do not have @apache.org
>> address from voting
>> 3. What I said does not change anything for non-committers/non-PMCs
>>
>> What I meant is that if you are a committer/PMC please use an apache.org address because then the person that summarizes the votes can check in the apache directory if a person with that address is a committer/PMC in flink project. Otherwise if a committer uses a different address there is no way to check if that person is a committer/PMC or not. It does not mean though that if you vote from apache.org this vote is automatically binding. It just allows us to check if it is.
>>
>> To elaborate on Xuefu's example. It's absolutely fine for you to use an apache address for voting. I will still check if you are a committer or not. But take me (or any other committer) for example. If I use my non-apache address for a vote and the person verifying the vote does not know me and my address, it is not easy for that person to verify if I am a committer or not.
>>
>> Also it does not mean that other people are not allowed to vote. You can vote from other addresses, but those votes will be counted as non-binding. This does not change anything for non-committers/non-PMC. However if you are a committer and vote from non apache address your vote will be non-binding, because we cannot verify you are indeed a committer (we might don't know your other address).
>>
>> I agree the additional information (binding, non-binding) in a vote helps, but it still should be verified. People make mistakes.
>>
>> I hope this clears it up a bit.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Dawid
>>
>> On 04/12/2019 04:58, Dian Fu wrote:
>>> Thanks Dawid for start this discussion.
>>>
>>> I have the same feeling with Xuefu and Jingsong. Besides that, according to the bylaws, for some kinds of votes, only the votes from active PMC members are binding, such as product release. So an email address doesn't help here. Even if a vote is from a Flink committer, it is still non-binding.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Dian
>>>
>>>> 在 2019年12月4日，上午10:37，Jingsong Lee<lz...@apache.org> 写道：
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Dawid for driving this discussion.
>>>>
>>>> +1 to Xuefu's viewpoint.
>>>> I am not a Flink committer, but sometimes I use apache email address to
>>>> send email.
>>>>
>>>> Another way is that we require the binding ticket to must contain "binding".
>>>> Otherwise it must be a "non-binding" ticket.
>>>> In this way, we can let lazy people continue voting without any suffix too.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Jingsong Lee
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 3:58 AM Xuefu Z<us...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Dawid,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for initiating this discussion. I understand the problem you
>>>>> described, but the solution might not work as having an apache.org email
>>>>> address doesn't necessary mean it's from a Flink committer. This certainly
>>>>> applies to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> It probably helps for the voters to identify themselves by specifying
>>>>> either "binding" or "non-binding", though I understand this cannot be
>>>>> enforced but serves a general guideline.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Xuefu
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 6:15 AM Dawid Wysakowicz<dw...@apache.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wanted to reach out primarily to the Flink's committers. I think
>>>>>> whenever we cast a vote on a proposal, is it a FLIP, release candidate
>>>>>> or any other proposal, we should use our apache.org email address.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is not an easy task to check if a person voting is a committer/PMC if
>>>>>> we do not work with him/her on a daily basis. This is important for
>>>>>> verifying if a vote is binding or not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dawid
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Xuefu Zhang
>>>>>
>>>>> "In Honey We Trust!"
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Best, Jingsong Lee
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Voting from apache.org addresses
Posted by Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>.
I believe this to be a sensible approach by Dawid; +1.
On 04/12/2019 09:04, Dawid Wysakowicz wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Sorry I think I was not clear enough on my initial e-mail. Let me
> first clarify two things and later on try to rephrase my initial
> suggestion.
>
> 1. I do not want to count all votes from @apache.org addresses as binding
> 2. I do not want to discourage people that do not have @apache.org
> address from voting
> 3. What I said does not change anything for non-committers/non-PMCs
>
> What I meant is that if you are a committer/PMC please use an
> apache.org address because then the person that summarizes the votes
> can check in the apache directory if a person with that address is a
> committer/PMC in flink project. Otherwise if a committer uses a
> different address there is no way to check if that person is a
> committer/PMC or not. It does not mean though that if you vote from
> apache.org this vote is automatically binding. It just allows us to
> check if it is.
>
> To elaborate on Xuefu's example. It's absolutely fine for you to use
> an apache address for voting. I will still check if you are a
> committer or not. But take me (or any other committer) for example. If
> I use my non-apache address for a vote and the person verifying the
> vote does not know me and my address, it is not easy for that person
> to verify if I am a committer or not.
>
> Also it does not mean that other people are not allowed to vote. You
> can vote from other addresses, but those votes will be counted as
> non-binding. This does not change anything for non-committers/non-PMC.
> However if you are a committer and vote from non apache address your
> vote will be non-binding, because we cannot verify you are indeed a
> committer (we might don't know your other address).
>
> I agree the additional information (binding, non-binding) in a vote
> helps, but it still should be verified. People make mistakes.
>
> I hope this clears it up a bit.
>
> Best,
>
> Dawid
>
> On 04/12/2019 04:58, Dian Fu wrote:
>> Thanks Dawid for start this discussion.
>>
>> I have the same feeling with Xuefu and Jingsong. Besides that, according to the bylaws, for some kinds of votes, only the votes from active PMC members are binding, such as product release. So an email address doesn't help here. Even if a vote is from a Flink committer, it is still non-binding.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dian
>>
>>> 在 2019年12月4日，上午10:37，Jingsong Lee<lz...@apache.org> 写道：
>>>
>>> Thanks Dawid for driving this discussion.
>>>
>>> +1 to Xuefu's viewpoint.
>>> I am not a Flink committer, but sometimes I use apache email address to
>>> send email.
>>>
>>> Another way is that we require the binding ticket to must contain "binding".
>>> Otherwise it must be a "non-binding" ticket.
>>> In this way, we can let lazy people continue voting without any suffix too.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Jingsong Lee
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 3:58 AM Xuefu Z<us...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Dawid,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for initiating this discussion. I understand the problem you
>>>> described, but the solution might not work as having an apache.org email
>>>> address doesn't necessary mean it's from a Flink committer. This certainly
>>>> applies to me.
>>>>
>>>> It probably helps for the voters to identify themselves by specifying
>>>> either "binding" or "non-binding", though I understand this cannot be
>>>> enforced but serves a general guideline.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Xuefu
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 6:15 AM Dawid Wysakowicz<dw...@apache.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> I wanted to reach out primarily to the Flink's committers. I think
>>>>> whenever we cast a vote on a proposal, is it a FLIP, release candidate
>>>>> or any other proposal, we should use our apache.org email address.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is not an easy task to check if a person voting is a committer/PMC if
>>>>> we do not work with him/her on a daily basis. This is important for
>>>>> verifying if a vote is binding or not.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Dawid
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Xuefu Zhang
>>>>
>>>> "In Honey We Trust!"
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Best, Jingsong Lee
Re: [DISCUSS] Voting from apache.org addresses
Posted by Jingsong Li <ji...@gmail.com>.
Hi Dawid,
Thanks for you explanation.
You mean that "people who vote for binding +1 need to use apache email
addresses".
Although I can't vote binding +1, I am +1 for this suggestion.
Best,
Jingsong Lee
On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 4:04 PM Dawid Wysakowicz <dw...@apache.org>
wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Sorry I think I was not clear enough on my initial e-mail. Let me first
> clarify two things and later on try to rephrase my initial suggestion.
>
> 1. I do not want to count all votes from @apache.org addresses as
> binding
> 2. I do not want to discourage people that do not have @apache.org
> address from voting
> 3. What I said does not change anything for non-committers/non-PMCs
>
> What I meant is that if you are a committer/PMC please use an apache.org
> address because then the person that summarizes the votes can check in the
> apache directory if a person with that address is a committer/PMC in flink
> project. Otherwise if a committer uses a different address there is no way
> to check if that person is a committer/PMC or not. It does not mean though
> that if you vote from apache.org this vote is automatically binding. It
> just allows us to check if it is.
>
> To elaborate on Xuefu's example. It's absolutely fine for you to use an
> apache address for voting. I will still check if you are a committer or
> not. But take me (or any other committer) for example. If I use my
> non-apache address for a vote and the person verifying the vote does not
> know me and my address, it is not easy for that person to verify if I am a
> committer or not.
>
> Also it does not mean that other people are not allowed to vote. You can
> vote from other addresses, but those votes will be counted as non-binding.
> This does not change anything for non-committers/non-PMC. However if you
> are a committer and vote from non apache address your vote will be
> non-binding, because we cannot verify you are indeed a committer (we might
> don't know your other address).
>
> I agree the additional information (binding, non-binding) in a vote helps,
> but it still should be verified. People make mistakes.
>
> I hope this clears it up a bit.
>
> Best,
>
> Dawid
> On 04/12/2019 04:58, Dian Fu wrote:
>
> Thanks Dawid for start this discussion.
>
> I have the same feeling with Xuefu and Jingsong. Besides that, according to the bylaws, for some kinds of votes, only the votes from active PMC members are binding, such as product release. So an email address doesn't help here. Even if a vote is from a Flink committer, it is still non-binding.
>
> Thanks,
> Dian
>
>
> 在 2019年12月4日，上午10:37，Jingsong Lee <lz...@apache.org> <lz...@apache.org> 写道：
>
> Thanks Dawid for driving this discussion.
>
> +1 to Xuefu's viewpoint.
> I am not a Flink committer, but sometimes I use apache email address to
> send email.
>
> Another way is that we require the binding ticket to must contain "binding".
> Otherwise it must be a "non-binding" ticket.
> In this way, we can let lazy people continue voting without any suffix too.
>
> Best,
> Jingsong Lee
>
> On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 3:58 AM Xuefu Z <us...@gmail.com> <us...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Dawid,
>
> Thanks for initiating this discussion. I understand the problem you
> described, but the solution might not work as having an apache.org email
> address doesn't necessary mean it's from a Flink committer. This certainly
> applies to me.
>
> It probably helps for the voters to identify themselves by specifying
> either "binding" or "non-binding", though I understand this cannot be
> enforced but serves a general guideline.
>
> Thanks,
> Xuefu
>
> On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 6:15 AM Dawid Wysakowicz <dw...@apache.org> <dw...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I wanted to reach out primarily to the Flink's committers. I think
> whenever we cast a vote on a proposal, is it a FLIP, release candidate
> or any other proposal, we should use our apache.org email address.
>
> It is not an easy task to check if a person voting is a committer/PMC if
> we do not work with him/her on a daily basis. This is important for
> verifying if a vote is binding or not.
>
> Best,
>
> Dawid
>
>
>
>
> --
> Xuefu Zhang
>
> "In Honey We Trust!"
>
>
> --
> Best, Jingsong Lee
>
>
--
Best, Jingsong Lee
Re: [DISCUSS] Voting from apache.org addresses
Posted by Dawid Wysakowicz <dw...@apache.org>.
Hi all,
Sorry I think I was not clear enough on my initial e-mail. Let me first
clarify two things and later on try to rephrase my initial suggestion.
1. I do not want to count all votes from @apache.org addresses as binding
2. I do not want to discourage people that do not have @apache.org
address from voting
3. What I said does not change anything for non-committers/non-PMCs
What I meant is that if you are a committer/PMC please use an apache.org
address because then the person that summarizes the votes can check in
the apache directory if a person with that address is a committer/PMC in
flink project. Otherwise if a committer uses a different address there
is no way to check if that person is a committer/PMC or not. It does not
mean though that if you vote from apache.org this vote is automatically
binding. It just allows us to check if it is.
To elaborate on Xuefu's example. It's absolutely fine for you to use an
apache address for voting. I will still check if you are a committer or
not. But take me (or any other committer) for example. If I use my
non-apache address for a vote and the person verifying the vote does not
know me and my address, it is not easy for that person to verify if I am
a committer or not.
Also it does not mean that other people are not allowed to vote. You can
vote from other addresses, but those votes will be counted as
non-binding. This does not change anything for non-committers/non-PMC.
However if you are a committer and vote from non apache address your
vote will be non-binding, because we cannot verify you are indeed a
committer (we might don't know your other address).
I agree the additional information (binding, non-binding) in a vote
helps, but it still should be verified. People make mistakes.
I hope this clears it up a bit.
Best,
Dawid
On 04/12/2019 04:58, Dian Fu wrote:
> Thanks Dawid for start this discussion.
>
> I have the same feeling with Xuefu and Jingsong. Besides that, according to the bylaws, for some kinds of votes, only the votes from active PMC members are binding, such as product release. So an email address doesn't help here. Even if a vote is from a Flink committer, it is still non-binding.
>
> Thanks,
> Dian
>
>> 在 2019年12月4日，上午10:37，Jingsong Lee <lz...@apache.org> 写道：
>>
>> Thanks Dawid for driving this discussion.
>>
>> +1 to Xuefu's viewpoint.
>> I am not a Flink committer, but sometimes I use apache email address to
>> send email.
>>
>> Another way is that we require the binding ticket to must contain "binding".
>> Otherwise it must be a "non-binding" ticket.
>> In this way, we can let lazy people continue voting without any suffix too.
>>
>> Best,
>> Jingsong Lee
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 3:58 AM Xuefu Z <us...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Dawid,
>>>
>>> Thanks for initiating this discussion. I understand the problem you
>>> described, but the solution might not work as having an apache.org email
>>> address doesn't necessary mean it's from a Flink committer. This certainly
>>> applies to me.
>>>
>>> It probably helps for the voters to identify themselves by specifying
>>> either "binding" or "non-binding", though I understand this cannot be
>>> enforced but serves a general guideline.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Xuefu
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 6:15 AM Dawid Wysakowicz <dw...@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I wanted to reach out primarily to the Flink's committers. I think
>>>> whenever we cast a vote on a proposal, is it a FLIP, release candidate
>>>> or any other proposal, we should use our apache.org email address.
>>>>
>>>> It is not an easy task to check if a person voting is a committer/PMC if
>>>> we do not work with him/her on a daily basis. This is important for
>>>> verifying if a vote is binding or not.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Dawid
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Xuefu Zhang
>>>
>>> "In Honey We Trust!"
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Best, Jingsong Lee
Re: [DISCUSS] Voting from apache.org addresses
Posted by Dian Fu <di...@gmail.com>.
Thanks Dawid for start this discussion.
I have the same feeling with Xuefu and Jingsong. Besides that, according to the bylaws, for some kinds of votes, only the votes from active PMC members are binding, such as product release. So an email address doesn't help here. Even if a vote is from a Flink committer, it is still non-binding.
Thanks,
Dian
> 在 2019年12月4日，上午10:37，Jingsong Lee <lz...@apache.org> 写道：
>
> Thanks Dawid for driving this discussion.
>
> +1 to Xuefu's viewpoint.
> I am not a Flink committer, but sometimes I use apache email address to
> send email.
>
> Another way is that we require the binding ticket to must contain "binding".
> Otherwise it must be a "non-binding" ticket.
> In this way, we can let lazy people continue voting without any suffix too.
>
> Best,
> Jingsong Lee
>
> On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 3:58 AM Xuefu Z <us...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Dawid,
>>
>> Thanks for initiating this discussion. I understand the problem you
>> described, but the solution might not work as having an apache.org email
>> address doesn't necessary mean it's from a Flink committer. This certainly
>> applies to me.
>>
>> It probably helps for the voters to identify themselves by specifying
>> either "binding" or "non-binding", though I understand this cannot be
>> enforced but serves a general guideline.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Xuefu
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 6:15 AM Dawid Wysakowicz <dw...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I wanted to reach out primarily to the Flink's committers. I think
>>> whenever we cast a vote on a proposal, is it a FLIP, release candidate
>>> or any other proposal, we should use our apache.org email address.
>>>
>>> It is not an easy task to check if a person voting is a committer/PMC if
>>> we do not work with him/her on a daily basis. This is important for
>>> verifying if a vote is binding or not.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Dawid
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Xuefu Zhang
>>
>> "In Honey We Trust!"
>>
>
>
> --
> Best, Jingsong Lee
Re: [DISCUSS] Voting from apache.org addresses
Posted by Jingsong Lee <lz...@apache.org>.
Thanks Dawid for driving this discussion.
+1 to Xuefu's viewpoint.
I am not a Flink committer, but sometimes I use apache email address to
send email.
Another way is that we require the binding ticket to must contain "binding".
Otherwise it must be a "non-binding" ticket.
In this way, we can let lazy people continue voting without any suffix too.
Best,
Jingsong Lee
On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 3:58 AM Xuefu Z <us...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Dawid,
>
> Thanks for initiating this discussion. I understand the problem you
> described, but the solution might not work as having an apache.org email
> address doesn't necessary mean it's from a Flink committer. This certainly
> applies to me.
>
> It probably helps for the voters to identify themselves by specifying
> either "binding" or "non-binding", though I understand this cannot be
> enforced but serves a general guideline.
>
> Thanks,
> Xuefu
>
> On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 6:15 AM Dawid Wysakowicz <dw...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I wanted to reach out primarily to the Flink's committers. I think
> > whenever we cast a vote on a proposal, is it a FLIP, release candidate
> > or any other proposal, we should use our apache.org email address.
> >
> > It is not an easy task to check if a person voting is a committer/PMC if
> > we do not work with him/her on a daily basis. This is important for
> > verifying if a vote is binding or not.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Dawid
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Xuefu Zhang
>
> "In Honey We Trust!"
>
--
Best, Jingsong Lee
Re: [DISCUSS] Voting from apache.org addresses
Posted by Xuefu Z <us...@gmail.com>.
Hi Dawid,
Thanks for initiating this discussion. I understand the problem you
described, but the solution might not work as having an apache.org email
address doesn't necessary mean it's from a Flink committer. This certainly
applies to me.
It probably helps for the voters to identify themselves by specifying
either "binding" or "non-binding", though I understand this cannot be
enforced but serves a general guideline.
Thanks,
Xuefu
On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 6:15 AM Dawid Wysakowicz <dw...@apache.org>
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I wanted to reach out primarily to the Flink's committers. I think
> whenever we cast a vote on a proposal, is it a FLIP, release candidate
> or any other proposal, we should use our apache.org email address.
>
> It is not an easy task to check if a person voting is a committer/PMC if
> we do not work with him/her on a daily basis. This is important for
> verifying if a vote is binding or not.
>
> Best,
>
> Dawid
>
>
>
--
Xuefu Zhang
"In Honey We Trust!"