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Posted to dev@netbeans.apache.org by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID> on 2018/08/23 11:01:23 UTC
[DISCUSS] NetBeans brand and domain transition to Apache
Hi all,
To add to the fun, we're getting really close now to actually transitioning
the NetBeans brand and domains to Apache.
I.e., netbeans.org and several other domains are in process of being
donated to Apache. We have the go ahead from Apache VP to open an INFRA
ticket for the transfer of NetBeans domain names to Apache, which I'll do
right after sending out this e-mail.
A related knock-on effect is that org.netbeans will be available for Apache
NetBeans Maven archetypes, since the netbeans.org domain will belong to
Apache.
Anyway, lots to discuss here, and several loose ends and open items. If you
consider this as the start of a process, rather than the end of it, you'll
be in the right frame of mind. :-)
I'll post the INFRA ticket here as soon as its created, where we can track
progress, and will also put this thread in the issue so that we can keep
things co-ordinated.
If you're going to respond in this thread, please do try to be as compact
and to the point as you possibly can be.
Thanks,
Gj
Re: org.netbeans name prefix for artifacts and Java packages
Posted by Antonio <an...@vieiro.net>.
El 23/08/2018 a las 14:27, Jan Lahoda escribió:
> 23. srpna 2018 13:37:23 SELČ, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org> napsal:
>> [...]
>> If there are strong reasons for NetBeans to keep using org.netbeans in
>> places (after an understandable transition phase) those should be
>> listed somewhere so a discussion can begin.
>
> IIRC, we already had such discussion at least partially. One quite strong reason to keep package and also module names is compatibility: there is a lot of existing code using these names.
>
That's a strong reason to keep using org.netbeans, IMHO, at least during
a transition phase.
So what about releasing Maven artifacts under _both_ "org.netbeans" and
"org.apache.netbeans" during a transition phase? Is that possible?
After that transition phase, the "lots of existing code" are expected to
move to "org.apache.netbeans", and we can then deprecate "org.netbeans".
Cheers,
Antonio
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Re: org.netbeans name prefix for artifacts and Java packages (was: [DISCUSS] NetBeans brand and domain transition to Apache)
Posted by Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com>.
23. srpna 2018 13:37:23 SELČ, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org> napsal:
>Hi,
>
>On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 1:01 PM Geertjan Wielenga
><ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>> ...A related knock-on effect is that org.netbeans will be available
>for Apache
>> NetBeans Maven archetypes, since the netbeans.org domain will belong
>to
>> Apache...
>
>I suppose you mean Maven *artifacts*.
>
>Note that AFAIK NetBeans should use the org.apache prefix for all Java
>package names, Maven artifacts etc.
>
>If there are strong reasons for NetBeans to keep using org.netbeans in
>places (after an understandable transition phase) those should be
>listed somewhere so a discussion can begin.
IIRC, we already had such discussion at least partially. One quite strong reason to keep package and also module names is compatibility: there is a lot of existing code using these names.
Jan
>
>-Bertrand
>
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Re: org.netbeans name prefix for artifacts and Java packages (was:
[DISCUSS] NetBeans brand and domain transition to Apache)
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 3:41 PM Andreas Sewe <se...@cqse.eu> wrote:
> ...If you switch just the groupId from org.netbeans to
> org.apache.netbeans (but leave artifactIds and package names intact),
> then this is relatively painless, thanks to so-called relocation POMs [1]....
Yes, and that's something that happens frequently.
-Bertrand
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Re: org.netbeans name prefix for artifacts and Java packages (was:
[DISCUSS] NetBeans brand and domain transition to Apache)
Posted by Andreas Sewe <se...@cqse.eu>.
Hi,
> We've discussed it before, will try to track it down -- I think there'd be
> various problems if we switch the names of Maven artifacts to
> org.apache.netbeans, though correct me if I'm wrong or add additional
> points here related to this, anyone who has insights here.
just a pointer: If you switch just the groupId from org.netbeans to
org.apache.netbeans (but leave artifactIds and package names intact),
then this is relatively painless, thanks to so-called relocation POMs [1].
Hope this helps.
Andreas
[1]
<https://maven.apache.org/guides/mini/guide-relocation.html#How_to_relocate_a_Maven_2_artifact_to_a_different_groupId>
--
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Re: org.netbeans name prefix for artifacts and Java packages (was:
[DISCUSS] NetBeans brand and domain transition to Apache)
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>.
Yes, thanks for flagging this topic.
We've discussed it before, will try to track it down -- I think there'd be
various problems if we switch the names of Maven artifacts to
org.apache.netbeans, though correct me if I'm wrong or add additional
points here related to this, anyone who has insights here.
Thanks,
Gj
On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 1:37 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bdelacretaz@apache.org
> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 1:01 PM Geertjan Wielenga
> <ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> > ...A related knock-on effect is that org.netbeans will be available for
> Apache
> > NetBeans Maven archetypes, since the netbeans.org domain will belong to
> > Apache...
>
> I suppose you mean Maven *artifacts*.
>
> Note that AFAIK NetBeans should use the org.apache prefix for all Java
> package names, Maven artifacts etc.
>
> If there are strong reasons for NetBeans to keep using org.netbeans in
> places (after an understandable transition phase) those should be
> listed somewhere so a discussion can begin.
>
> -Bertrand
>
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>
>
>
org.netbeans name prefix for artifacts and Java packages (was:
[DISCUSS] NetBeans brand and domain transition to Apache)
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 1:01 PM Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> ...A related knock-on effect is that org.netbeans will be available for Apache
> NetBeans Maven archetypes, since the netbeans.org domain will belong to
> Apache...
I suppose you mean Maven *artifacts*.
Note that AFAIK NetBeans should use the org.apache prefix for all Java
package names, Maven artifacts etc.
If there are strong reasons for NetBeans to keep using org.netbeans in
places (after an understandable transition phase) those should be
listed somewhere so a discussion can begin.
-Bertrand
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Re: [DISCUSS] NetBeans brand and domain transition to Apache
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 at 13:10, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> Yes - I think the only requirement at this point is that the
> *ownership* of the domains is transferred to Apache, moving the
> content is a separate concern.
Yes, but I was trying to get a handle on what the Oracle expectation
of that process is. Some of the content has already been migrated.
Other bits were held up because we weren't sure at the time about the
donation status of the website content.
Geertjan is also talking about netbeans.org redirecting to
netbeans.apache.org as we do this, and we don't want to lose access to
a whole host of things in doing that ...
On Fri, 24 Aug 2018 at 07:36, Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> To be very clear: netbeans.org is not disappearing. :-) Once the domain
> transitions to Apache, it will be rerouted to netbeans.apache.org so that
> whether netbeans.org or netbeans.apache.org is typed in the browser, you'll
> end up at netbeans.apache.org.
Is your thought that just the homepage redirects there, or every
sub-path too? We could try and keep the entire old site up for a
while at eg. old.netbeans.org and use a redirect for all non-existent
pages to the old site? Ideally with the right code that it doesn't
get spidered there! I think that might be the reverse of what Antonio
was suggesting off-list? It puts us in charge of the redirections
throughout.
That does beg the question whether the existing site code will work as
is under a different subdomain? Hopefully the fact that the old site
is currently at the bare domain won't make this process more
difficult. There's some interesting redirects on there currently -
see eg. http://www.netbeans.org vs https://www.netbeans.org
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: [DISCUSS] NetBeans brand and domain transition to Apache
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>.
Sorry, I see there's a typo in my last response.
To be very clear: netbeans.org is not disappearing. :-) Once the domain
transitions to Apache, it will be rerouted to netbeans.apache.org so that
whether netbeans.org or netbeans.apache.org is typed in the browser, you'll
end up at netbeans.apache.org.
Thanks,
Gj
On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 8:10 AM Geertjan Wielenga <
geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> I don't think anyone is talking about "having a large, established web
> presence just vanish in to the ether".
>
> Why would anyone anywhere suggest that? :-) The idea isn that netbeans.org
> is going to be rerouted to netbeans.apache.org.
>
> Gj
>
> On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 11:28 PM Will Hartung <wi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 5:10 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
>> bdelacretaz@apache.org
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > Yes - I think the only requirement at this point is that the
>> > *ownership* of the domains is transferred to Apache, moving the
>> > content is a separate concern.
>> >
>>
>> Is it even possible for the Apache foundation to distribute older
>> artifacts
>> if they have, for example, GPL licensed parts within them?
>>
>> Can they do it from "netbeans.org" as some sort of "off shore shell
>> company" kind of thing? (since it's "not Apache", yes I know I'm splitting
>> hairs).
>>
>> The NetBeans Apache Git server contains GPL code (since, as I understand
>> it, it has direct donations from the Oracle contribution that were
>> committed before the license change). It's pedantic, but how does this
>> licensed code stand under Apache policies. Is it allowed as a "legacy"
>> component? Can the original netbeans.org content also be grandfathered in
>> under a similar exemption?
>>
>> One of the issues, to me, is the impact of having a large, established web
>> presence just vanish in to the ether, which is what would happen were
>> netbeans.org to either just "go away" or be significantly refactored. The
>> destruction of java.net was, and still is, a painful event to the Java
>> community.
>>
>> If netbeans.org is to be significantly redone, is there a reason for it
>> at
>> all beyond a redirect to netbeans.apache.org? Are there other Apache
>> projects that have any significant web presence outside of the *.
>> apache.org
>> system?
>>
>> There is a LOT of stuff and history at netbeans.org. It would be nice
>> (IMHO) if it were to remain mostly intact, and even maintained, as an
>> anchor within the NetBeans community, especially the old artifacts and
>> releases but also all of the documentation and tutorials. I'd hate for it
>> to have to be a project to port all of those pages to someplace else.
>>
>> But I just don't know how much of a brand presence NetBeans can have out
>> side of Apache. Not sure what the governance guidelines are like for that.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Will Hartung
>>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] NetBeans brand and domain transition to Apache
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>.
I don't think anyone is talking about "having a large, established web
presence just vanish in to the ether".
Why would anyone anywhere suggest that? :-) The idea isn that netbeans.org
is going to be rerouted to netbeans.apache.org.
Gj
On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 11:28 PM Will Hartung <wi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 5:10 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacretaz@apache.org
> > wrote:
>
> > Yes - I think the only requirement at this point is that the
> > *ownership* of the domains is transferred to Apache, moving the
> > content is a separate concern.
> >
>
> Is it even possible for the Apache foundation to distribute older artifacts
> if they have, for example, GPL licensed parts within them?
>
> Can they do it from "netbeans.org" as some sort of "off shore shell
> company" kind of thing? (since it's "not Apache", yes I know I'm splitting
> hairs).
>
> The NetBeans Apache Git server contains GPL code (since, as I understand
> it, it has direct donations from the Oracle contribution that were
> committed before the license change). It's pedantic, but how does this
> licensed code stand under Apache policies. Is it allowed as a "legacy"
> component? Can the original netbeans.org content also be grandfathered in
> under a similar exemption?
>
> One of the issues, to me, is the impact of having a large, established web
> presence just vanish in to the ether, which is what would happen were
> netbeans.org to either just "go away" or be significantly refactored. The
> destruction of java.net was, and still is, a painful event to the Java
> community.
>
> If netbeans.org is to be significantly redone, is there a reason for it at
> all beyond a redirect to netbeans.apache.org? Are there other Apache
> projects that have any significant web presence outside of the *.
> apache.org
> system?
>
> There is a LOT of stuff and history at netbeans.org. It would be nice
> (IMHO) if it were to remain mostly intact, and even maintained, as an
> anchor within the NetBeans community, especially the old artifacts and
> releases but also all of the documentation and tutorials. I'd hate for it
> to have to be a project to port all of those pages to someplace else.
>
> But I just don't know how much of a brand presence NetBeans can have out
> side of Apache. Not sure what the governance guidelines are like for that.
>
> Regards,
>
> Will Hartung
>
Re: [DISCUSS] NetBeans brand and domain transition to Apache
Posted by Jens Hofschröer <ap...@nigjo.de>.
Am 03.09.2018 um 15:31 schrieb Bertrand Delacretaz:
> On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 11:28 PM Will Hartung <wi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ...Is it even possible for the Apache foundation to distribute older artifacts
>> if they have, for example, GPL licensed parts within them?...
>
> No, only Apache Releases (and the corresponding convenience binaries)
> can be distributed from apache.org, if non-Apache releases need to
> stay up a different solution will be required.
An idea: Upload the old artefacts as releases to the history github repo
by Emilian. So the "old" sources and the "old" releases are on one place
and we can link to this resource from the website.
Jens
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Re: [DISCUSS] NetBeans brand and domain transition to Apache
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 12:35 PM Ate Douma <at...@douma.nu> wrote:
> ...the
> answer below from Roman *only* concerns allowing *linking* to
> prior official releases. That is very different from *distributing*
> such prior release artifacts from apache.org, which isn't allowed...
I agree with Ate here, it's fine to link to prior non-Apache releases
(with suitable disclaimers) but we cannot distribute them from
apache.org domains.
-Bertrand
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Re: [DISCUSS] NetBeans brand and domain transition to Apache
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 4 Sep 2018 at 20:10, Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> That makes sense. Anyone should be able to host it, though it doesn't sound
> like that would be Apache, and it would be best to be as independent as
> possible from Oracle, hence better some other external place -- though
> would that have to comply with Apache branding rules?
>
Exactly my point! And why I find the policy questionable. Why do you
think independent from Oracle is best though? The historic stuff
still belongs to Oracle.
Personally, I think the best option is the donating party, the next
best is via Apache, and if that's not a possibility then perhaps
there's a third-party that can be agreed between the two? Isn't it
better for projects (and branding) that there's an agreed definitive
place where old sources and binaries are archived in perpetuity,
rather than pointing to random personal GitHub repos?
Surely there's got to be some precedent here?!
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: [DISCUSS] NetBeans brand and domain transition to Apache
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>.
That makes sense. Anyone should be able to host it, though it doesn't sound
like that would be Apache, and it would be best to be as independent as
possible from Oracle, hence better some other external place -- though
would that have to comply with Apache branding rules?
Gj
On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 8:31 PM, Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Sep 2018 at 19:19, Geertjan Wielenga
> <ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > Note that Oracle has not, and will not, donate the canonical archive of
> > NetBeans to Apache. Only the tips of the source code that constitute
> > NetBeans are being donated.
> >
>
> I know, but that is separate to where it gets hosted. Anyone can host
> under its current license. If Oracle committed to doing that longer
> term and we can link to it, all the better!
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
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>
Re: [DISCUSS] NetBeans brand and domain transition to Apache
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 4 Sep 2018 at 19:19, Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> Note that Oracle has not, and will not, donate the canonical archive of
> NetBeans to Apache. Only the tips of the source code that constitute
> NetBeans are being donated.
>
I know, but that is separate to where it gets hosted. Anyone can host
under its current license. If Oracle committed to doing that longer
term and we can link to it, all the better!
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: [DISCUSS] NetBeans brand and domain transition to Apache
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>.
I don't know either and we're trying to figure out exactly these answers.
Do note that no binaries at all are on netbeans.org, instead, they're on
Akamai servers: akamai.com
Potentially Oracle can donate its Akamai account to Apache and then those
binaries can continue to be made available from there, for example.
Gj
On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 8:38 PM, Will Hartung <wi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 2:59 PM Geertjan Wielenga
> <ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> > No, it doesn't mean anything at all -- except that what we're trying to
> do
> > here is figure out the best way to solve this particular scenario.
> >
> > We're discussing here, you're welcome to join in. Where should the
> binaries
> > be hosted, in your opinion? That would help, if you have an opinion on
> > this, and then we can discuss that approach with Oracle and with Apache.
> >
>
> Well, first, it's simply unclear to me the status of the artifacts on
> nb.org.
> The source code are OSS artifacts, but what are the binaries? Can "anyone"
> distribute those binary artifacts? Or just Oracle?
>
> As I understand it, Apache is getting the domain as well as the web pages
> and tutorials from nb.org, yes?
>
> But Apache is not getting the binary artifacts, and, even were it able to,
> is not able to distribute them anyway (for unimportant reasons, I'm not
> questioning those, simply trying to work within the framework).
>
> So, what it's the definition of distribution? Hosted on Apache
> infrastructure? If you have a web page on Apache infrastructure with one
> pointing to http://xxx.apache.org/stuff/Netbeans9.zip and the other
> pointing to http://some.place.else.xyz/legacy/Netbeans8.2.zip, is that
> consider distribution from an Apache POV? Even if the links look identical
> the fact they source from different infrastructure makes it "ok"? Or does
> there need to be a link to some.place.else.xyz where they have their own
> web pages discussing downloading and distributing those artifacts?
>
> Has Oracle made any mention of what they intend to do with the old
> artifacts (including the HG repo and binary artifacts) after nb.org is
> handed over?
>
> The HG repo is potentially important, as what's been mentioned before
> regarding versioning and such (notably of the platform) has been "if you
> can't keep up, use the older version". But it's not clear to me whether
> after the nb.org is handed over, ANY older versions will exist. Maybe as
> tags in the git repo? But can those be distributed from Apache git servers
> (as none of it is ASLd)?
>
> Those are the questions I have.
>
> Regards,
>
> Will Hartung
>
Re: [DISCUSS] NetBeans brand and domain transition to Apache
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 8:38 PM Will Hartung <wi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...So, what it's the definition of distribution? Hosted on Apache
> infrastructure?...
Yes that's my understanding. Apache artifacts are distributed via our
mirroring system [1] and that's only for software that we produce.
OTOH if the legacy NetBeans binaries are elsewhere, linking to them is
fine provided there's no confusion as to what they are. I think best
is to have a single link to a "non-Apache release archive" page.
OpenOffice has a similar situation, see the bottom of
https://openoffice.apache.org/downloads.html which links to
https://www.openoffice.org/download/legacy/index.html
-Bertrand
[1] https://www.apache.org/info/how-to-mirror.html
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Re: [DISCUSS] NetBeans brand and domain transition to Apache
Posted by Will Hartung <wi...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 2:59 PM Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> No, it doesn't mean anything at all -- except that what we're trying to do
> here is figure out the best way to solve this particular scenario.
>
> We're discussing here, you're welcome to join in. Where should the binaries
> be hosted, in your opinion? That would help, if you have an opinion on
> this, and then we can discuss that approach with Oracle and with Apache.
>
Well, first, it's simply unclear to me the status of the artifacts on nb.org.
The source code are OSS artifacts, but what are the binaries? Can "anyone"
distribute those binary artifacts? Or just Oracle?
As I understand it, Apache is getting the domain as well as the web pages
and tutorials from nb.org, yes?
But Apache is not getting the binary artifacts, and, even were it able to,
is not able to distribute them anyway (for unimportant reasons, I'm not
questioning those, simply trying to work within the framework).
So, what it's the definition of distribution? Hosted on Apache
infrastructure? If you have a web page on Apache infrastructure with one
pointing to http://xxx.apache.org/stuff/Netbeans9.zip and the other
pointing to http://some.place.else.xyz/legacy/Netbeans8.2.zip, is that
consider distribution from an Apache POV? Even if the links look identical
the fact they source from different infrastructure makes it "ok"? Or does
there need to be a link to some.place.else.xyz where they have their own
web pages discussing downloading and distributing those artifacts?
Has Oracle made any mention of what they intend to do with the old
artifacts (including the HG repo and binary artifacts) after nb.org is
handed over?
The HG repo is potentially important, as what's been mentioned before
regarding versioning and such (notably of the platform) has been "if you
can't keep up, use the older version". But it's not clear to me whether
after the nb.org is handed over, ANY older versions will exist. Maybe as
tags in the git repo? But can those be distributed from Apache git servers
(as none of it is ASLd)?
Those are the questions I have.
Regards,
Will Hartung
Re: [DISCUSS] NetBeans brand and domain transition to Apache
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>.
No, it doesn't mean anything at all -- except that what we're trying to do
here is figure out the best way to solve this particular scenario.
We're discussing here, you're welcome to join in. Where should the binaries
be hosted, in your opinion? That would help, if you have an opinion on
this, and then we can discuss that approach with Oracle and with Apache.
For example, is the organization you're working for able to offer space to
host these artifacts? If so, that would help -- again, all we are trying to
do here is to find the best solution for everyone.
Thanks,
Gj
On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 10:39 PM, Will Hartung <wi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 11:19 AM Geertjan Wielenga
> <ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> > Note that Oracle has not, and will not, donate the canonical archive of
> > NetBeans to Apache. Only the tips of the source code that constitute
> > NetBeans are being donated.
> >
>
> So does that mean, for example, that after nb.org gets switched over
> (since
> all apache gets is the domain name, essentially), artifacts such as the
> binaries of NB <= 8.2 will not be available, since they're not being
> donated, and we can't rebuild them? Apart from the whether we can actually
> distribute them or not, we're not even getting them in the first place?
>
> Regards,
>
> Will Hartung
>
Re: [DISCUSS] NetBeans brand and domain transition to Apache
Posted by Will Hartung <wi...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 11:19 AM Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> Note that Oracle has not, and will not, donate the canonical archive of
> NetBeans to Apache. Only the tips of the source code that constitute
> NetBeans are being donated.
>
So does that mean, for example, that after nb.org gets switched over (since
all apache gets is the domain name, essentially), artifacts such as the
binaries of NB <= 8.2 will not be available, since they're not being
donated, and we can't rebuild them? Apart from the whether we can actually
distribute them or not, we're not even getting them in the first place?
Regards,
Will Hartung
Re: [DISCUSS] NetBeans brand and domain transition to Apache
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>.
Note that Oracle has not, and will not, donate the canonical archive of
NetBeans to Apache. Only the tips of the source code that constitute
NetBeans are being donated.
Gj
On Tuesday, September 4, 2018, Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Sep 2018, 11:35 Ate Douma, <at...@douma.nu> wrote:
> > Just chiming in and Bertrand may have some more explicit answer, but the
> > answer below from Roman *only* concerns allowing *linking* to
> > prior official releases. That is very different from *distributing*
> > such prior release artifacts from apache.org, which isn't allowed.
>
> OK, thanks both. I guess I read particularly the second part
> differently / wrongly. I suppose I never thought the idea of linking
> out would ever be in question.
>
> For the record, I personally find this policy questionable. I
> understand sandboxing the pre-Apache things from everything else
> (suitable disclaimers and all). But with domains and brands being
> donated, it seems to me that an Apache community should be able to
> take responsibility for the canonical archive of a project if the
> donating body doesn't want to. Linking back to Oracle is one thing,
> but I'm not sure linking to a random GitHub repo (Emi's or otherwise)
> is in anyone's interest.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
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>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] NetBeans brand and domain transition to Apache
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 4 Sep 2018, 11:35 Ate Douma, <at...@douma.nu> wrote:
> Just chiming in and Bertrand may have some more explicit answer, but the
> answer below from Roman *only* concerns allowing *linking* to
> prior official releases. That is very different from *distributing*
> such prior release artifacts from apache.org, which isn't allowed.
OK, thanks both. I guess I read particularly the second part
differently / wrongly. I suppose I never thought the idea of linking
out would ever be in question.
For the record, I personally find this policy questionable. I
understand sandboxing the pre-Apache things from everything else
(suitable disclaimers and all). But with domains and brands being
donated, it seems to me that an Apache community should be able to
take responsibility for the canonical archive of a project if the
donating body doesn't want to. Linking back to Oracle is one thing,
but I'm not sure linking to a random GitHub repo (Emi's or otherwise)
is in anyone's interest.
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: [DISCUSS] NetBeans brand and domain transition to Apache
Posted by Ate Douma <at...@douma.nu>.
On 2018-09-04 12:15, Neil C Smith wrote:
> Hi Bertrand,
>
> On Mon, 3 Sep 2018 at 14:31, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>> No, only Apache Releases (and the corresponding convenience binaries)
>> can be distributed from apache.org, if non-Apache releases need to
>> stay up a different solution will be required.
>
> I quoted this email exchange from infra@ in a discussion on this a few
> weeks ago - is the below not correct / something we can do then?
Just chiming in and Bertrand may have some more explicit answer, but the
answer below from Roman *only* concerns allowing *linking* to
prior official releases. That is very different from *distributing*
such prior release artifacts from apache.org, which isn't allowed.
Regards,
Ate
>
> On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 at 17:59, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 9:34 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> What is the policy on download pages that wish to link to artifacts
>>> that are not official Apache releases?
>>
>> Note that there's a subtlety here: there may be official releases of
>> the project done prior to it becoming Apache. I think we need
>> to distinguish between this and what you seem to have in mind.
>>
>>> My view is that only official release artifacts produced at the ASF
>>> can be published on the download page.
>>
>> We have a history of prior official releases being allowed.
>>
>
> Thanks and best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] NetBeans brand and domain transition to Apache
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
Hi Bertrand,
On Mon, 3 Sep 2018 at 14:31, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> No, only Apache Releases (and the corresponding convenience binaries)
> can be distributed from apache.org, if non-Apache releases need to
> stay up a different solution will be required.
I quoted this email exchange from infra@ in a discussion on this a few
weeks ago - is the below not correct / something we can do then?
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 at 17:59, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 9:34 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > What is the policy on download pages that wish to link to artifacts
> > that are not official Apache releases?
>
> Note that there's a subtlety here: there may be official releases of
> the project done prior to it becoming Apache. I think we need
> to distinguish between this and what you seem to have in mind.
>
> > My view is that only official release artifacts produced at the ASF
> > can be published on the download page.
>
> We have a history of prior official releases being allowed.
>
Thanks and best wishes,
Neil
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Re: [DISCUSS] NetBeans brand and domain transition to Apache
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 11:28 PM Will Hartung <wi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...Is it even possible for the Apache foundation to distribute older artifacts
> if they have, for example, GPL licensed parts within them?...
No, only Apache Releases (and the corresponding convenience binaries)
can be distributed from apache.org, if non-Apache releases need to
stay up a different solution will be required.
-Bertrand
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Re: [DISCUSS] NetBeans brand and domain transition to Apache
Posted by Will Hartung <wi...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 5:10 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bdelacretaz@apache.org
> wrote:
> Yes - I think the only requirement at this point is that the
> *ownership* of the domains is transferred to Apache, moving the
> content is a separate concern.
>
Is it even possible for the Apache foundation to distribute older artifacts
if they have, for example, GPL licensed parts within them?
Can they do it from "netbeans.org" as some sort of "off shore shell
company" kind of thing? (since it's "not Apache", yes I know I'm splitting
hairs).
The NetBeans Apache Git server contains GPL code (since, as I understand
it, it has direct donations from the Oracle contribution that were
committed before the license change). It's pedantic, but how does this
licensed code stand under Apache policies. Is it allowed as a "legacy"
component? Can the original netbeans.org content also be grandfathered in
under a similar exemption?
One of the issues, to me, is the impact of having a large, established web
presence just vanish in to the ether, which is what would happen were
netbeans.org to either just "go away" or be significantly refactored. The
destruction of java.net was, and still is, a painful event to the Java
community.
If netbeans.org is to be significantly redone, is there a reason for it at
all beyond a redirect to netbeans.apache.org? Are there other Apache
projects that have any significant web presence outside of the *.apache.org
system?
There is a LOT of stuff and history at netbeans.org. It would be nice
(IMHO) if it were to remain mostly intact, and even maintained, as an
anchor within the NetBeans community, especially the old artifacts and
releases but also all of the documentation and tutorials. I'd hate for it
to have to be a project to port all of those pages to someplace else.
But I just don't know how much of a brand presence NetBeans can have out
side of Apache. Not sure what the governance guidelines are like for that.
Regards,
Will Hartung
Re: [DISCUSS] NetBeans brand and domain transition to Apache
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 1:46 PM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...The DNS settings
> could still point back to Oracle hosting for all, then select,
> subdomains....
Yes - I think the only requirement at this point is that the
*ownership* of the domains is transferred to Apache, moving the
content is a separate concern.
-Bertrand
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Re: [DISCUSS] NetBeans brand and domain transition to Apache
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
> On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 1:01 PM, Geertjan Wielenga <
> geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > To add to the fun, we're getting really close now to actually
> > transitioning the NetBeans brand and domains to Apache.
For everyone else, there was a very brief off-list discussion on this
amongst a few who've been doing web related things - I'm just reposting
my questions from that -
On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 at 04:53, Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> From our point of view, what do we need to know, how can we most smoothly do the switch, what kind of process is needed?
A reverse question. How long could / is Oracle willing to host what
is there? Just because the trademark, domain, etc. move to Apache
doesn't mean everything has to move at that time. The DNS settings
could still point back to Oracle hosting for all, then select,
subdomains. In my opinion this should be seen as the start of the
transition of some of those things, and done section by section over
6-12 months. I think that approach was discussed initially?
What, if anything, is Oracle's wish / responsibility in keeping old
NetBeans 8.2 and earlier code and updates up?
We could do with clarifying Apache rules on hosting archived older
versions of Apache projects under previous license and copyright. I
think I posted a quote from somewhere recently that suggests we could
host the old source and binary bundles on Apache infra, which would be
ideal.
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: [DISCUSS] NetBeans brand and domain transition to Apache
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>.
Here it is: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-16946
Thanks,
Gj
On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 1:01 PM, Geertjan Wielenga <
geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> To add to the fun, we're getting really close now to actually
> transitioning the NetBeans brand and domains to Apache.
>
> I.e., netbeans.org and several other domains are in process of being
> donated to Apache. We have the go ahead from Apache VP to open an INFRA
> ticket for the transfer of NetBeans domain names to Apache, which I'll do
> right after sending out this e-mail.
>
> A related knock-on effect is that org.netbeans will be available for
> Apache NetBeans Maven archetypes, since the netbeans.org domain will
> belong to Apache.
>
> Anyway, lots to discuss here, and several loose ends and open items. If
> you consider this as the start of a process, rather than the end of it,
> you'll be in the right frame of mind. :-)
>
> I'll post the INFRA ticket here as soon as its created, where we can track
> progress, and will also put this thread in the issue so that we can keep
> things co-ordinated.
>
> If you're going to respond in this thread, please do try to be as compact
> and to the point as you possibly can be.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Gj
>