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Posted to dev@struts.apache.org by James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org> on 2003/12/19 08:44:25 UTC
RE: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
<snip/>
> If/when Struts becomes a TLP, I'm going to recommend that we do exactly what
> Ant, James, and Maven (for example) did:
>
> * Maintain a link on the Jakarta home page under "Related"
>
> * Install a webserver redirect from <http://jakarta.apache.org/struts>
> to <http://struts.apache.org>.
Is there anything holding us back from going TLP?
I seem to remember only a few brief discussions on the dev list....and
that was quite a ways back.
>
> Craig
>
--
James Mitchell
Software Developer / Struts Evangelist
http://www.struts-atlanta.org
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Re: Struts 2 (Was PMC?)
Posted by Vic Cekvenich <ce...@basebeans.com>.
Vic Cekvenich wrote:
I would like to recall this part of a message.
>
> I am wondering if I was to develop a strawman of the 2.0 wish list w/
> IoC, XMLFormBean, etc. if ANY committer would look at it with me, or if
> it be a waste of time for me.
>
> .V
I just saw code in Struts chain
AbstractExecuteAction implements Command ....
I like a lot how it can work w/Catalog and all. I can't code that!
Only wish is... IoC (HiveMind or Nano).
.V
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Re: Struts 2 (Was PMC?)
Posted by Vic Cekvenich <ce...@basebeans.com>.
Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
</big snip>
>
>
> So, do we invite the non-Java implementations of the same concept in, or do we
> say "nah, we're a Java project?" I'm not personally much interested in the non
> Java solutions, but a cross-language framework would be somewhat unusual.
>
> Craig
>
It may be interesting to keep an eye out when developing interfaces as
to how C++, C#, PHP could reimplement the same "UML".
I am wondering if I was to develop a strawman of the 2.0 wish list w/
IoC, XMLFormBean, etc. if ANY committer would look at it with me, or if
it be a waste of time for me.
.V
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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
Posted by David Graham <gr...@yahoo.com>.
--- "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> Quoting Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>:
>
> > Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
> > > Presuming a positive vote from the committers, we'd have to make a
> formal
> > > proposal to the ASF Board (like the Ant, Maven, ... communities did,
> so we
> > can
> > > use their proposals as a sample) and get it accepted. Included in
> the
> > proposal
> > > would be things like who the PMC members would be, and who we'd
> suggest as
> > the
> > > PMC chairperson (because this person becomes an ASF officer, it has
> to be
> > > appointed by the board).
> > >
> > > The largest issue around preparing the proposal is likely to be a
> > definition of
> > > what the scope of the project will be.
> >
> > We could dodge the bullet and just follow Cocoon precedent: define the
>
> > scope of Apache Struts to be Apache Struts :)
> >
>
> So, do we invite the non-Java implementations of the same concept in, or
> do we
> say "nah, we're a Java project?" I'm not personally much interested in
> the non
> Java solutions, but a cross-language framework would be somewhat
> unusual.
I'm also not interested in non-Java Struts implementations. Any other
implementation could only share struts-config.xml and none of our current
code. There would be 2 separate and largely independent group of
developers so I don't see the need to include them in Struts.
David
>
> Craig
>
>
> >
>
http://apache.org/foundation/records/minutes/2003/board_minutes_2003_01_22.txt
> >
> > Otherwise, any language we come up with is sure to overlap with other
> > Apache offerings, and we end up having to create some type of
> frameworks
> > project, along the lines of the Database or Web Services projects.
> >
> >
>
http://apache.org/foundation/records/minutes/2002/board_minutes_2002_07_17.txt
> >
> >
>
http://apache.org/foundation/records/minutes/2003/board_minutes_2003_01_22.txt
> >
> > If we did decide to do something, I'm not opposed to either course.
> >
> > The former would be less work, but the latter might have greater long
> > term benefits. In the latter case, I suppose we'd ask Tapestry and
> > Turbine if they wanted to join us as frameworks.apache.org (or
> whatever).
> >
> > I looked over the Board status reports for db and webservices, but
> it's
> > hard to tell whether these new umbrellas are working any better than
> > Jakarta. If anyone is involved with the communities, and has something
>
> > to share, please do.
> >
> > On balance, I would lean toward the position that the Struts community
>
> > is large and robust enough to justify its own TLP, and see if the
> Board
> > agrees.
> >
> > One thing I would like to bring up in the context of a TLP Struts is
> the
> > idea of also hosting a php implementation of Struts. Several people
> have
> > been trying to do this (google struts php). Since php is also an
> Apache
> > product, it would be a natural thing for a top-level ASF Struts
> project
> > do to. A framework similar to Struts, Maverick, already has a php
> > implementation, which proves it can be done.
> >
> > Of course, there is also the matter of JSR 223
> > <http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=223>.
> >
> > There is *alot* of interest in using MVC in php-land, and a Struts
> > implementation could help coalesce that interest into a stable
> community.
> >
> > -Ted.
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > For additional commands, e-mail: struts-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
>
>
>
>
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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
Quoting Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>:
> Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
> > Presuming a positive vote from the committers, we'd have to make a formal
> > proposal to the ASF Board (like the Ant, Maven, ... communities did, so we
> can
> > use their proposals as a sample) and get it accepted. Included in the
> proposal
> > would be things like who the PMC members would be, and who we'd suggest as
> the
> > PMC chairperson (because this person becomes an ASF officer, it has to be
> > appointed by the board).
> >
> > The largest issue around preparing the proposal is likely to be a
> definition of
> > what the scope of the project will be.
>
> We could dodge the bullet and just follow Cocoon precedent: define the
> scope of Apache Struts to be Apache Struts :)
>
So, do we invite the non-Java implementations of the same concept in, or do we
say "nah, we're a Java project?" I'm not personally much interested in the non
Java solutions, but a cross-language framework would be somewhat unusual.
Craig
>
http://apache.org/foundation/records/minutes/2003/board_minutes_2003_01_22.txt
>
> Otherwise, any language we come up with is sure to overlap with other
> Apache offerings, and we end up having to create some type of frameworks
> project, along the lines of the Database or Web Services projects.
>
>
http://apache.org/foundation/records/minutes/2002/board_minutes_2002_07_17.txt
>
>
http://apache.org/foundation/records/minutes/2003/board_minutes_2003_01_22.txt
>
> If we did decide to do something, I'm not opposed to either course.
>
> The former would be less work, but the latter might have greater long
> term benefits. In the latter case, I suppose we'd ask Tapestry and
> Turbine if they wanted to join us as frameworks.apache.org (or whatever).
>
> I looked over the Board status reports for db and webservices, but it's
> hard to tell whether these new umbrellas are working any better than
> Jakarta. If anyone is involved with the communities, and has something
> to share, please do.
>
> On balance, I would lean toward the position that the Struts community
> is large and robust enough to justify its own TLP, and see if the Board
> agrees.
>
> One thing I would like to bring up in the context of a TLP Struts is the
> idea of also hosting a php implementation of Struts. Several people have
> been trying to do this (google struts php). Since php is also an Apache
> product, it would be a natural thing for a top-level ASF Struts project
> do to. A framework similar to Struts, Maverick, already has a php
> implementation, which proves it can be done.
>
> Of course, there is also the matter of JSR 223
> <http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=223>.
>
> There is *alot* of interest in using MVC in php-land, and a Struts
> implementation could help coalesce that interest into a stable community.
>
> -Ted.
>
>
>
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>
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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
Posted by Joe Germuska <Jo...@Germuska.com>.
At 2:03 PM -0500 12/19/03, Ted Husted wrote:
>I looked over the Board status reports for db and webservices, but
>it's hard to tell whether these new umbrellas are working any better
>than Jakarta. If anyone is involved with the communities, and has
>something to share, please do.
I monitor db.apache.org, and I would say that it hasn't really
achieved community status yet. There are some signs of mutual
interest across projects, but it's hard to say how cohesive it is.
To be honest, though, I don't see a whole lot of value in a
"frameworks.apache.org" -- I think you'd end up with the same problem
Jakarta has -- not enough overlapping interest between the
sub-communities for one PMC to adequately provide oversight. I'd
suppose that any overlapping interest could be served by
jakarta-commons -- which is in fact already happening.
Joe
--
Joe Germuska
Joe@Germuska.com
http://blog.germuska.com
"We want beef in dessert if we can get it there."
-- Betty Hogan, Director of New Product Development, National
Cattlemen's Beef Association
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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
> Presuming a positive vote from the committers, we'd have to make a formal
> proposal to the ASF Board (like the Ant, Maven, ... communities did, so we can
> use their proposals as a sample) and get it accepted. Included in the proposal
> would be things like who the PMC members would be, and who we'd suggest as the
> PMC chairperson (because this person becomes an ASF officer, it has to be
> appointed by the board).
>
> The largest issue around preparing the proposal is likely to be a definition of
> what the scope of the project will be.
We could dodge the bullet and just follow Cocoon precedent: define the
scope of Apache Struts to be Apache Struts :)
http://apache.org/foundation/records/minutes/2003/board_minutes_2003_01_22.txt
Otherwise, any language we come up with is sure to overlap with other
Apache offerings, and we end up having to create some type of frameworks
project, along the lines of the Database or Web Services projects.
http://apache.org/foundation/records/minutes/2002/board_minutes_2002_07_17.txt
http://apache.org/foundation/records/minutes/2003/board_minutes_2003_01_22.txt
If we did decide to do something, I'm not opposed to either course.
The former would be less work, but the latter might have greater long
term benefits. In the latter case, I suppose we'd ask Tapestry and
Turbine if they wanted to join us as frameworks.apache.org (or whatever).
I looked over the Board status reports for db and webservices, but it's
hard to tell whether these new umbrellas are working any better than
Jakarta. If anyone is involved with the communities, and has something
to share, please do.
On balance, I would lean toward the position that the Struts community
is large and robust enough to justify its own TLP, and see if the Board
agrees.
One thing I would like to bring up in the context of a TLP Struts is the
idea of also hosting a php implementation of Struts. Several people have
been trying to do this (google struts php). Since php is also an Apache
product, it would be a natural thing for a top-level ASF Struts project
do to. A framework similar to Struts, Maverick, already has a php
implementation, which proves it can be done.
Of course, there is also the matter of JSR 223
<http://jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=223>.
There is *alot* of interest in using MVC in php-land, and a Struts
implementation could help coalesce that interest into a stable community.
-Ted.
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RE: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
Quoting David Graham <gr...@yahoo.com>:
> I have some real basic questions:
>
> 1. Why is it better to be a top level Apache project rather than part of
> Jakarta.
>
I've seen comments from Martin and Ted that they're wanting to answer this
question more fully with a proposal, so I'll let them do most of the work. The
short answer, though, is we will be in charge of our own releases (currently,
the Jakarta PMC is the only body legally recognized to vote on releases of
*any* software under Jakarta). Additionally, the act of preparing the proposal
will require us to focus on defining the scope of what we think Struts is and
should be, and that's always beneficial.
If we want it (and I think we should), we can get our own top level domain
(struts.apache.org) as well, but that's icing on the cake.
> 2. What are the requirements for becoming a top level project?
>
The Incubator Wiki has a few pointers, but this stuff is somewhat in flux:
http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/
I'll see if I can dig up some references from the general@ mailing list, or Ted
or Martin might have something at their fingertips.
> Any URLs/info is appreciated.
>
> David
>
Craig
>
> --- "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> > Quoting James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org>:
> >
> > > On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
> > >
> > > <snip/>
> > >
> > > > If/when Struts becomes a TLP, I'm going to recommend that we do
> > exactly
> > > what
> > > > Ant, James, and Maven (for example) did:
> > > >
> > > > * Maintain a link on the Jakarta home page under "Related"
> > > >
> > > > * Install a webserver redirect from
> > <http://jakarta.apache.org/struts>
> > > > to <http://struts.apache.org>.
> > >
> > > Is there anything holding us back from going TLP?
> > >
> > > I seem to remember only a few brief discussions on the dev list....and
> > > that was quite a ways back.
> > >
> >
> > Presuming a positive vote from the committers, we'd have to make a
> > formal
> > proposal to the ASF Board (like the Ant, Maven, ... communities did, so
> > we can
> > use their proposals as a sample) and get it accepted. Included in the
> > proposal
> > would be things like who the PMC members would be, and who we'd suggest
> > as the
> > PMC chairperson (because this person becomes an ASF officer, it has to
> > be
> > appointed by the board).
> >
> > The largest issue around preparing the proposal is likely to be a
> > definition of
> > what the scope of the project will be.
> >
> > > James Mitchell
> >
> > Craig
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: struts-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: struts-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
>
>
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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
For starters, there's this:
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?JakartaPMCPropsedChanges
David Graham wrote:
> I have some real basic questions:
>
> 1. Why is it better to be a top level Apache project rather than part of
> Jakarta.
>
> 2. What are the requirements for becoming a top level project?
>
> Any URLs/info is appreciated.
>
> David
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RE: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
Posted by David Graham <gr...@yahoo.com>.
I have some real basic questions:
1. Why is it better to be a top level Apache project rather than part of
Jakarta.
2. What are the requirements for becoming a top level project?
Any URLs/info is appreciated.
David
--- "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> Quoting James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org>:
>
> > On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
> >
> > <snip/>
> >
> > > If/when Struts becomes a TLP, I'm going to recommend that we do
> exactly
> > what
> > > Ant, James, and Maven (for example) did:
> > >
> > > * Maintain a link on the Jakarta home page under "Related"
> > >
> > > * Install a webserver redirect from
> <http://jakarta.apache.org/struts>
> > > to <http://struts.apache.org>.
> >
> > Is there anything holding us back from going TLP?
> >
> > I seem to remember only a few brief discussions on the dev list....and
> > that was quite a ways back.
> >
>
> Presuming a positive vote from the committers, we'd have to make a
> formal
> proposal to the ASF Board (like the Ant, Maven, ... communities did, so
> we can
> use their proposals as a sample) and get it accepted. Included in the
> proposal
> would be things like who the PMC members would be, and who we'd suggest
> as the
> PMC chairperson (because this person becomes an ASF officer, it has to
> be
> appointed by the board).
>
> The largest issue around preparing the proposal is likely to be a
> definition of
> what the scope of the project will be.
>
> > James Mitchell
>
> Craig
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: struts-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: struts-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
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RE: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
Quoting James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org>:
> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
>
> <snip/>
>
> > If/when Struts becomes a TLP, I'm going to recommend that we do exactly
> what
> > Ant, James, and Maven (for example) did:
> >
> > * Maintain a link on the Jakarta home page under "Related"
> >
> > * Install a webserver redirect from <http://jakarta.apache.org/struts>
> > to <http://struts.apache.org>.
>
> Is there anything holding us back from going TLP?
>
> I seem to remember only a few brief discussions on the dev list....and
> that was quite a ways back.
>
Presuming a positive vote from the committers, we'd have to make a formal
proposal to the ASF Board (like the Ant, Maven, ... communities did, so we can
use their proposals as a sample) and get it accepted. Included in the proposal
would be things like who the PMC members would be, and who we'd suggest as the
PMC chairperson (because this person becomes an ASF officer, it has to be
appointed by the board).
The largest issue around preparing the proposal is likely to be a definition of
what the scope of the project will be.
> James Mitchell
Craig
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