You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to dev@flink.apache.org by "wenlong.lwl" <we...@gmail.com> on 2021/12/01 01:31:00 UTC
Re: [DISCUSS] Deprecate Java 8 support
hi, @Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org> would you explain more about
what would happen when deprecating Java 8, but still support it. IMO, if we
still generate packages based on Java 8 which seems to be a consensus, we
still can not take the advantages you mentioned even if we announce that
Java 8 support is deprecated.
Best,
Wenlong
On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 at 17:22, Marios Trivyzas <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> +1 from me as well on the Java 8 deprecation!
> It's important to make the users aware, and "force" them but also the
> communities of other
> related projects (like the aforementioned Hive) to start preparing for the
> future drop of Java 8
> support and the upgrade to the recent stable versions.
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 11:15 PM Thomas Weise <th...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > +1 for Java 8 deprecation. It's an important signal for users and we
> > need to give sufficient time to adopt. Thanks Chesnay for starting the
> > discussion! Maybe user@ can be included into this discussion?
> >
> > Thomas
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 6:49 AM Becket Qin <be...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks for raising the discussion, Chesnay.
> > >
> > > I think it is OK to deprecate Java 8 to let the users know that Java 11
> > > migration should be put into the schedule. However, According to some
> of
> > > the statistics of the Java version adoption[1], a large number of users
> > are
> > > still using Java 8 in production. I doubt that Java 8 users will drop
> to
> > a
> > > negligible amount within the next 2 - 3 Flink releases. I would suggest
> > > making the time to drop Java 8 support flexible.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
> > >
> > > [1] https://www.infoq.com/news/2021/07/snyk-jvm-2021/
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 5:09 AM Till Rohrmann <tr...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > +1 for the deprecation and reaching out to the user ML to ask for
> > feedback
> > > > from our users. Thanks for driving this Chesnay!
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Till
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 10:15 AM Roman Khachatryan <roman@apache.org
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > The situation is probably a bit different now compared to the
> > previous
> > > > > upgrade: some users might be using Amazon Coretto (or other builds)
> > > > > which have longer support.
> > > > >
> > > > > Still +1 for deprecation to trigger migration, and thanks for
> > bringing
> > > > > this up!
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Roman
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 10:09 AM Arvid Heise <ar...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > +1 to deprecate Java 8, so we can hopefully incorporate the
> module
> > > > > concept
> > > > > > in Flink.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 9:49 AM Chesnay Schepler <
> > chesnay@apache.org>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Users can already use APIs from Java 8/11.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 25/11/2021 09:35, Francesco Guardiani wrote:
> > > > > > > > +1 with what both Ingo and Matthias sad, personally, I cannot
> > wait
> > > > to
> > > > > > > start using some of
> > > > > > > > the APIs introduced in Java 9. And I'm pretty sure that's the
> > same
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > our users as well.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Tuesday, 23 November 2021 13:35:07 CET Ingo Bürk wrote:
> > > > > > > >> Hi everyone,
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> continued support for Java 8 can also create project risks,
> > e.g.
> > > > if
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > >> vulnerability arises in Flink's dependencies and we cannot
> > upgrade
> > > > > them
> > > > > > > >> because they no longer support Java 8. Some projects already
> > > > started
> > > > > > > >> deprecating support as well, like Kafka, and other projects
> > will
> > > > > likely
> > > > > > > >> follow.
> > > > > > > >> Let's also keep in mind that the proposal here is not to
> drop
> > > > > support
> > > > > > > right
> > > > > > > >> away, but to deprecate it, send the message, and motivate
> > users to
> > > > > start
> > > > > > > >> migrating. Delaying this process could ironically mean users
> > have
> > > > > less
> > > > > > > time
> > > > > > > >> to prepare for it.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Ingo
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 8:54 AM Matthias Pohl <
> > > > > matthias@ververica.com>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>> Thanks for constantly driving these maintenance topics,
> > Chesnay.
> > > > +1
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > >>> my
> > > > > > > >>> side for deprecating Java 8. I see the point Jingsong is
> > raising.
> > > > > But I
> > > > > > > >>> agree with what David already said here. Deprecating the
> Java
> > > > > version
> > > > > > > is a
> > > > > > > >>> tool to make users aware of it (same as starting this
> > discussion
> > > > > > > thread).
> > > > > > > >>> If there's no major opposition against deprecating it in
> the
> > > > > community
> > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > >>> should move forward in this regard to make the users who do
> > not
> > > > > > > >>> regularly browse the mailing list aware of it. That said,
> > > > > deprecating
> > > > > > > Java
> > > > > > > >>> 8 in 1.15 does not necessarily mean that it is dropped in
> > 1.16.
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> Best,
> > > > > > > >>> Matthias
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 8:46 AM David Morávek <
> > dmvk@apache.org>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>> Thank you Chesnay for starting the discussion! This will
> > > > generate
> > > > > bit
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > >>> a
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>>> work for some users, but it's a good thing to keep moving
> > the
> > > > > project
> > > > > > > >>>> forward. Big +1 for this.
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> Jingsong:
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> Receiving this signal, the user may be unhappy because his
> > > > > application
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>> may be all on Java 8. Upgrading is a big job, after all,
> > many
> > > > > systems
> > > > > > > >>>>> have not been upgraded yet. (Like you said, HBase and
> Hive)
> > > > > > > >>>> The whole point of deprecation is to raise awareness, that
> > this
> > > > > will
> > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > >>>> happening eventually and users should take some steps to
> > address
> > > > > this
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > >>>> medium-term. If I understand Chesnay correctly, we'd still
> > keep
> > > > > Java 8
> > > > > > > >>>> around for quite some time to give users enough time to
> > upgrade,
> > > > > but
> > > > > > > >>>> without raising awareness we'd fight the very same
> argument
> > > > later
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > >>> time.
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>>> All of the prerequisites from 3rd party projects for both
> > HBase
> > > > > [1]
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > >>>> Hive [2] to fully support Java 11 have been completed, so
> > the
> > > > > ball is
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > >>>> their side and there doesn't seem to be much activity.
> > > > Generating
> > > > > bit
> > > > > > > >>> more
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>>> pressure on these efforts might be a good thing.
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> It would be great to identify some of these users and
> learn
> > bit
> > > > > more
> > > > > > > >>> about
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>>> their situation. Are they keeping up with latest Flink
> > > > > developments or
> > > > > > > >>> are
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>>> they lagging behind (this would also give them way more
> > time for
> > > > > > > >>>> eventual
> > > > > > > >>>> upgrade)?
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> [1] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HBASE-22972
> > > > > > > >>>> [2] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HIVE-22415
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> Best,
> > > > > > > >>>> D.
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 3:08 AM Jingsong Li <
> > > > > jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>>> Hi Chesnay,
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>> Thanks for bringing this for discussion.
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>> We should dig deeper into the current Java version of
> Flink
> > > > > users. At
> > > > > > > >>>>> least make sure Java 8 is not a mainstream version.
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>> Receiving this signal, the user may be unhappy because
> his
> > > > > > > application
> > > > > > > >>>>> may be all on Java 8. Upgrading is a big job, after all,
> > many
> > > > > systems
> > > > > > > >>>>> have not been upgraded yet. (Like you said, HBase and
> Hive)
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>> In my opinion, it is too early to deprecate support for
> > Java 8.
> > > > > We
> > > > > > > >>>>> should wait for a safer point in time.
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 11:45 PM Ingo Bürk <
> > ingo@ververica.com
> > > > >
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>>>> Hi,
> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>> also a +1 from me because of everything Chesnay already
> > said.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>> Ingo
> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 4:41 PM Martijn Visser <
> > > > > > > >>> martijn@ververica.com>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
>
>
> --
> Marios
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Deprecate Java 8 support
Posted by Piotr Nowojski <pn...@apache.org>.
> @Piotr I guess that could be investigated along with an update of
flink-benchmarks to run on Java 11 as well...
I would second Nico's idea to run our benchmarks on Java 11 to see what has
changed compared to Java 8.
Best,
Piotrek
śr., 1 gru 2021 o 11:23 wenlong.lwl <we...@gmail.com> napisał(a):
> Thanks for the explanation.
>
> +1 for putting a bigger emphasis on performance on Java 11+. It would be
> great if Flink is already well prepared when users want to do the upgrade.
>
>
> Best,
> Wenlong
>
> On Wed, 1 Dec 2021 at 16:54, Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > That is correct, yes. During the deprecation period we won't seen any
> > improvements on our end.
> >
> > Something that I could envision is that the docker images will default to
> > Java 11 after a while, and that we put a bigger emphasis on performance
> on
> > Java 11+ than on Java 8.
> >
> > On 01/12/2021 02:31, wenlong.lwl wrote:
> >
> > hi, @Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org> would you explain more about
> > what would happen when deprecating Java 8, but still support it. IMO, if
> we
> > still generate packages based on Java 8 which seems to be a consensus,
> > we still can not take the advantages you mentioned even if we announce
> that
> > Java 8 support is deprecated.
> >
> >
> > Best,
> > Wenlong
> >
> > On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 at 17:22, Marios Trivyzas <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> +1 from me as well on the Java 8 deprecation!
> >> It's important to make the users aware, and "force" them but also the
> >> communities of other
> >> related projects (like the aforementioned Hive) to start preparing for
> the
> >> future drop of Java 8
> >> support and the upgrade to the recent stable versions.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 11:15 PM Thomas Weise <th...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> > +1 for Java 8 deprecation. It's an important signal for users and we
> >> > need to give sufficient time to adopt. Thanks Chesnay for starting the
> >> > discussion! Maybe user@ can be included into this discussion?
> >> >
> >> > Thomas
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 6:49 AM Becket Qin <be...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > Thanks for raising the discussion, Chesnay.
> >> > >
> >> > > I think it is OK to deprecate Java 8 to let the users know that Java
> >> 11
> >> > > migration should be put into the schedule. However, According to
> some
> >> of
> >> > > the statistics of the Java version adoption[1], a large number of
> >> users
> >> > are
> >> > > still using Java 8 in production. I doubt that Java 8 users will
> drop
> >> to
> >> > a
> >> > > negligible amount within the next 2 - 3 Flink releases. I would
> >> suggest
> >> > > making the time to drop Java 8 support flexible.
> >> > >
> >> > > Thanks,
> >> > >
> >> > > Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
> >> > >
> >> > > [1] https://www.infoq.com/news/2021/07/snyk-jvm-2021/
> >> > >
> >> > > On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 5:09 AM Till Rohrmann <trohrmann@apache.org
> >
> >> > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > +1 for the deprecation and reaching out to the user ML to ask for
> >> > feedback
> >> > > > from our users. Thanks for driving this Chesnay!
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Cheers,
> >> > > > Till
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 10:15 AM Roman Khachatryan <
> >> roman@apache.org>
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > > The situation is probably a bit different now compared to the
> >> > previous
> >> > > > > upgrade: some users might be using Amazon Coretto (or other
> >> builds)
> >> > > > > which have longer support.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Still +1 for deprecation to trigger migration, and thanks for
> >> > bringing
> >> > > > > this up!
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Regards,
> >> > > > > Roman
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 10:09 AM Arvid Heise <ar...@apache.org>
> >> > wrote:
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > +1 to deprecate Java 8, so we can hopefully incorporate the
> >> module
> >> > > > > concept
> >> > > > > > in Flink.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 9:49 AM Chesnay Schepler <
> >> > chesnay@apache.org>
> >> > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Users can already use APIs from Java 8/11.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > On 25/11/2021 09:35, Francesco Guardiani wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > +1 with what both Ingo and Matthias sad, personally, I
> >> cannot
> >> > wait
> >> > > > to
> >> > > > > > > start using some of
> >> > > > > > > > the APIs introduced in Java 9. And I'm pretty sure that's
> >> the
> >> > same
> >> > > > > for
> >> > > > > > > our users as well.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > On Tuesday, 23 November 2021 13:35:07 CET Ingo Bürk wrote:
> >> > > > > > > >> Hi everyone,
> >> > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > >> continued support for Java 8 can also create project
> risks,
> >> > e.g.
> >> > > > if
> >> > > > > a
> >> > > > > > > >> vulnerability arises in Flink's dependencies and we
> cannot
> >> > upgrade
> >> > > > > them
> >> > > > > > > >> because they no longer support Java 8. Some projects
> >> already
> >> > > > started
> >> > > > > > > >> deprecating support as well, like Kafka, and other
> projects
> >> > will
> >> > > > > likely
> >> > > > > > > >> follow.
> >> > > > > > > >> Let's also keep in mind that the proposal here is not to
> >> drop
> >> > > > > support
> >> > > > > > > right
> >> > > > > > > >> away, but to deprecate it, send the message, and motivate
> >> > users to
> >> > > > > start
> >> > > > > > > >> migrating. Delaying this process could ironically mean
> >> users
> >> > have
> >> > > > > less
> >> > > > > > > time
> >> > > > > > > >> to prepare for it.
> >> > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > >> Ingo
> >> > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > >> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 8:54 AM Matthias Pohl <
> >> > > > > matthias@ververica.com>
> >> > > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > >> wrote:
> >> > > > > > > >>> Thanks for constantly driving these maintenance topics,
> >> > Chesnay.
> >> > > > +1
> >> > > > > > > from
> >> > > > > > > >>> my
> >> > > > > > > >>> side for deprecating Java 8. I see the point Jingsong is
> >> > raising.
> >> > > > > But I
> >> > > > > > > >>> agree with what David already said here. Deprecating the
> >> Java
> >> > > > > version
> >> > > > > > > is a
> >> > > > > > > >>> tool to make users aware of it (same as starting this
> >> > discussion
> >> > > > > > > thread).
> >> > > > > > > >>> If there's no major opposition against deprecating it in
> >> the
> >> > > > > community
> >> > > > > > > we
> >> > > > > > > >>> should move forward in this regard to make the users who
> >> do
> >> > not
> >> > > > > > > >>> regularly browse the mailing list aware of it. That
> said,
> >> > > > > deprecating
> >> > > > > > > Java
> >> > > > > > > >>> 8 in 1.15 does not necessarily mean that it is dropped
> in
> >> > 1.16.
> >> > > > > > > >>>
> >> > > > > > > >>> Best,
> >> > > > > > > >>> Matthias
> >> > > > > > > >>>
> >> > > > > > > >>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 8:46 AM David Morávek <
> >> > dmvk@apache.org>
> >> > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > > >>>> Thank you Chesnay for starting the discussion! This
> will
> >> > > > generate
> >> > > > > bit
> >> > > > > > > of
> >> > > > > > > >>> a
> >> > > > > > > >>>
> >> > > > > > > >>>> work for some users, but it's a good thing to keep
> moving
> >> > the
> >> > > > > project
> >> > > > > > > >>>> forward. Big +1 for this.
> >> > > > > > > >>>>
> >> > > > > > > >>>> Jingsong:
> >> > > > > > > >>>>
> >> > > > > > > >>>> Receiving this signal, the user may be unhappy because
> >> his
> >> > > > > application
> >> > > > > > > >>>>
> >> > > > > > > >>>>> may be all on Java 8. Upgrading is a big job, after
> all,
> >> > many
> >> > > > > systems
> >> > > > > > > >>>>> have not been upgraded yet. (Like you said, HBase and
> >> Hive)
> >> > > > > > > >>>> The whole point of deprecation is to raise awareness,
> >> that
> >> > this
> >> > > > > will
> >> > > > > > > be
> >> > > > > > > >>>> happening eventually and users should take some steps
> to
> >> > address
> >> > > > > this
> >> > > > > > > in
> >> > > > > > > >>>> medium-term. If I understand Chesnay correctly, we'd
> >> still
> >> > keep
> >> > > > > Java 8
> >> > > > > > > >>>> around for quite some time to give users enough time to
> >> > upgrade,
> >> > > > > but
> >> > > > > > > >>>> without raising awareness we'd fight the very same
> >> argument
> >> > > > later
> >> > > > > in
> >> > > > > > > >>> time.
> >> > > > > > > >>>
> >> > > > > > > >>>> All of the prerequisites from 3rd party projects for
> both
> >> > HBase
> >> > > > > [1]
> >> > > > > > > and
> >> > > > > > > >>>> Hive [2] to fully support Java 11 have been completed,
> so
> >> > the
> >> > > > > ball is
> >> > > > > > > on
> >> > > > > > > >>>> their side and there doesn't seem to be much activity.
> >> > > > Generating
> >> > > > > bit
> >> > > > > > > >>> more
> >> > > > > > > >>>
> >> > > > > > > >>>> pressure on these efforts might be a good thing.
> >> > > > > > > >>>>
> >> > > > > > > >>>> It would be great to identify some of these users and
> >> learn
> >> > bit
> >> > > > > more
> >> > > > > > > >>> about
> >> > > > > > > >>>
> >> > > > > > > >>>> their situation. Are they keeping up with latest Flink
> >> > > > > developments or
> >> > > > > > > >>> are
> >> > > > > > > >>>
> >> > > > > > > >>>> they lagging behind (this would also give them way more
> >> > time for
> >> > > > > > > >>>> eventual
> >> > > > > > > >>>> upgrade)?
> >> > > > > > > >>>>
> >> > > > > > > >>>> [1] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HBASE-22972
> >> > > > > > > >>>> [2] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HIVE-22415
> >> > > > > > > >>>>
> >> > > > > > > >>>> Best,
> >> > > > > > > >>>> D.
> >> > > > > > > >>>>
> >> > > > > > > >>>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 3:08 AM Jingsong Li <
> >> > > > > jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
> >> > > > > > > >>>>
> >> > > > > > > >>>> wrote:
> >> > > > > > > >>>>> Hi Chesnay,
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>
> >> > > > > > > >>>>> Thanks for bringing this for discussion.
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>
> >> > > > > > > >>>>> We should dig deeper into the current Java version of
> >> Flink
> >> > > > > users. At
> >> > > > > > > >>>>> least make sure Java 8 is not a mainstream version.
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>
> >> > > > > > > >>>>> Receiving this signal, the user may be unhappy because
> >> his
> >> > > > > > > application
> >> > > > > > > >>>>> may be all on Java 8. Upgrading is a big job, after
> all,
> >> > many
> >> > > > > systems
> >> > > > > > > >>>>> have not been upgraded yet. (Like you said, HBase and
> >> Hive)
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>
> >> > > > > > > >>>>> In my opinion, it is too early to deprecate support
> for
> >> > Java 8.
> >> > > > > We
> >> > > > > > > >>>>> should wait for a safer point in time.
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>
> >> > > > > > > >>>>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 11:45 PM Ingo Bürk <
> >> > ingo@ververica.com
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>> Hi,
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>> also a +1 from me because of everything Chesnay
> already
> >> > said.
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>> Ingo
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> >> > > > > > > >>>>>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 4:41 PM Martijn Visser <
> >> > > > > > > >>> martijn@ververica.com>
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Marios
> >>
> >
> >
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Deprecate Java 8 support
Posted by "wenlong.lwl" <we...@gmail.com>.
Thanks for the explanation.
+1 for putting a bigger emphasis on performance on Java 11+. It would be
great if Flink is already well prepared when users want to do the upgrade.
Best,
Wenlong
On Wed, 1 Dec 2021 at 16:54, Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org> wrote:
> That is correct, yes. During the deprecation period we won't seen any
> improvements on our end.
>
> Something that I could envision is that the docker images will default to
> Java 11 after a while, and that we put a bigger emphasis on performance on
> Java 11+ than on Java 8.
>
> On 01/12/2021 02:31, wenlong.lwl wrote:
>
> hi, @Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org> would you explain more about
> what would happen when deprecating Java 8, but still support it. IMO, if we
> still generate packages based on Java 8 which seems to be a consensus,
> we still can not take the advantages you mentioned even if we announce that
> Java 8 support is deprecated.
>
>
> Best,
> Wenlong
>
> On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 at 17:22, Marios Trivyzas <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> +1 from me as well on the Java 8 deprecation!
>> It's important to make the users aware, and "force" them but also the
>> communities of other
>> related projects (like the aforementioned Hive) to start preparing for the
>> future drop of Java 8
>> support and the upgrade to the recent stable versions.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 11:15 PM Thomas Weise <th...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> > +1 for Java 8 deprecation. It's an important signal for users and we
>> > need to give sufficient time to adopt. Thanks Chesnay for starting the
>> > discussion! Maybe user@ can be included into this discussion?
>> >
>> > Thomas
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 6:49 AM Becket Qin <be...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Thanks for raising the discussion, Chesnay.
>> > >
>> > > I think it is OK to deprecate Java 8 to let the users know that Java
>> 11
>> > > migration should be put into the schedule. However, According to some
>> of
>> > > the statistics of the Java version adoption[1], a large number of
>> users
>> > are
>> > > still using Java 8 in production. I doubt that Java 8 users will drop
>> to
>> > a
>> > > negligible amount within the next 2 - 3 Flink releases. I would
>> suggest
>> > > making the time to drop Java 8 support flexible.
>> > >
>> > > Thanks,
>> > >
>> > > Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
>> > >
>> > > [1] https://www.infoq.com/news/2021/07/snyk-jvm-2021/
>> > >
>> > > On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 5:09 AM Till Rohrmann <tr...@apache.org>
>> > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > +1 for the deprecation and reaching out to the user ML to ask for
>> > feedback
>> > > > from our users. Thanks for driving this Chesnay!
>> > > >
>> > > > Cheers,
>> > > > Till
>> > > >
>> > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 10:15 AM Roman Khachatryan <
>> roman@apache.org>
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > The situation is probably a bit different now compared to the
>> > previous
>> > > > > upgrade: some users might be using Amazon Coretto (or other
>> builds)
>> > > > > which have longer support.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Still +1 for deprecation to trigger migration, and thanks for
>> > bringing
>> > > > > this up!
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Regards,
>> > > > > Roman
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 10:09 AM Arvid Heise <ar...@apache.org>
>> > wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > +1 to deprecate Java 8, so we can hopefully incorporate the
>> module
>> > > > > concept
>> > > > > > in Flink.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 9:49 AM Chesnay Schepler <
>> > chesnay@apache.org>
>> > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Users can already use APIs from Java 8/11.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > On 25/11/2021 09:35, Francesco Guardiani wrote:
>> > > > > > > > +1 with what both Ingo and Matthias sad, personally, I
>> cannot
>> > wait
>> > > > to
>> > > > > > > start using some of
>> > > > > > > > the APIs introduced in Java 9. And I'm pretty sure that's
>> the
>> > same
>> > > > > for
>> > > > > > > our users as well.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > On Tuesday, 23 November 2021 13:35:07 CET Ingo Bürk wrote:
>> > > > > > > >> Hi everyone,
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> continued support for Java 8 can also create project risks,
>> > e.g.
>> > > > if
>> > > > > a
>> > > > > > > >> vulnerability arises in Flink's dependencies and we cannot
>> > upgrade
>> > > > > them
>> > > > > > > >> because they no longer support Java 8. Some projects
>> already
>> > > > started
>> > > > > > > >> deprecating support as well, like Kafka, and other projects
>> > will
>> > > > > likely
>> > > > > > > >> follow.
>> > > > > > > >> Let's also keep in mind that the proposal here is not to
>> drop
>> > > > > support
>> > > > > > > right
>> > > > > > > >> away, but to deprecate it, send the message, and motivate
>> > users to
>> > > > > start
>> > > > > > > >> migrating. Delaying this process could ironically mean
>> users
>> > have
>> > > > > less
>> > > > > > > time
>> > > > > > > >> to prepare for it.
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> Ingo
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 8:54 AM Matthias Pohl <
>> > > > > matthias@ververica.com>
>> > > > > > > >>
>> > > > > > > >> wrote:
>> > > > > > > >>> Thanks for constantly driving these maintenance topics,
>> > Chesnay.
>> > > > +1
>> > > > > > > from
>> > > > > > > >>> my
>> > > > > > > >>> side for deprecating Java 8. I see the point Jingsong is
>> > raising.
>> > > > > But I
>> > > > > > > >>> agree with what David already said here. Deprecating the
>> Java
>> > > > > version
>> > > > > > > is a
>> > > > > > > >>> tool to make users aware of it (same as starting this
>> > discussion
>> > > > > > > thread).
>> > > > > > > >>> If there's no major opposition against deprecating it in
>> the
>> > > > > community
>> > > > > > > we
>> > > > > > > >>> should move forward in this regard to make the users who
>> do
>> > not
>> > > > > > > >>> regularly browse the mailing list aware of it. That said,
>> > > > > deprecating
>> > > > > > > Java
>> > > > > > > >>> 8 in 1.15 does not necessarily mean that it is dropped in
>> > 1.16.
>> > > > > > > >>>
>> > > > > > > >>> Best,
>> > > > > > > >>> Matthias
>> > > > > > > >>>
>> > > > > > > >>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 8:46 AM David Morávek <
>> > dmvk@apache.org>
>> > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > > >>>> Thank you Chesnay for starting the discussion! This will
>> > > > generate
>> > > > > bit
>> > > > > > > of
>> > > > > > > >>> a
>> > > > > > > >>>
>> > > > > > > >>>> work for some users, but it's a good thing to keep moving
>> > the
>> > > > > project
>> > > > > > > >>>> forward. Big +1 for this.
>> > > > > > > >>>>
>> > > > > > > >>>> Jingsong:
>> > > > > > > >>>>
>> > > > > > > >>>> Receiving this signal, the user may be unhappy because
>> his
>> > > > > application
>> > > > > > > >>>>
>> > > > > > > >>>>> may be all on Java 8. Upgrading is a big job, after all,
>> > many
>> > > > > systems
>> > > > > > > >>>>> have not been upgraded yet. (Like you said, HBase and
>> Hive)
>> > > > > > > >>>> The whole point of deprecation is to raise awareness,
>> that
>> > this
>> > > > > will
>> > > > > > > be
>> > > > > > > >>>> happening eventually and users should take some steps to
>> > address
>> > > > > this
>> > > > > > > in
>> > > > > > > >>>> medium-term. If I understand Chesnay correctly, we'd
>> still
>> > keep
>> > > > > Java 8
>> > > > > > > >>>> around for quite some time to give users enough time to
>> > upgrade,
>> > > > > but
>> > > > > > > >>>> without raising awareness we'd fight the very same
>> argument
>> > > > later
>> > > > > in
>> > > > > > > >>> time.
>> > > > > > > >>>
>> > > > > > > >>>> All of the prerequisites from 3rd party projects for both
>> > HBase
>> > > > > [1]
>> > > > > > > and
>> > > > > > > >>>> Hive [2] to fully support Java 11 have been completed, so
>> > the
>> > > > > ball is
>> > > > > > > on
>> > > > > > > >>>> their side and there doesn't seem to be much activity.
>> > > > Generating
>> > > > > bit
>> > > > > > > >>> more
>> > > > > > > >>>
>> > > > > > > >>>> pressure on these efforts might be a good thing.
>> > > > > > > >>>>
>> > > > > > > >>>> It would be great to identify some of these users and
>> learn
>> > bit
>> > > > > more
>> > > > > > > >>> about
>> > > > > > > >>>
>> > > > > > > >>>> their situation. Are they keeping up with latest Flink
>> > > > > developments or
>> > > > > > > >>> are
>> > > > > > > >>>
>> > > > > > > >>>> they lagging behind (this would also give them way more
>> > time for
>> > > > > > > >>>> eventual
>> > > > > > > >>>> upgrade)?
>> > > > > > > >>>>
>> > > > > > > >>>> [1] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HBASE-22972
>> > > > > > > >>>> [2] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HIVE-22415
>> > > > > > > >>>>
>> > > > > > > >>>> Best,
>> > > > > > > >>>> D.
>> > > > > > > >>>>
>> > > > > > > >>>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 3:08 AM Jingsong Li <
>> > > > > jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
>> > > > > > > >>>>
>> > > > > > > >>>> wrote:
>> > > > > > > >>>>> Hi Chesnay,
>> > > > > > > >>>>>
>> > > > > > > >>>>> Thanks for bringing this for discussion.
>> > > > > > > >>>>>
>> > > > > > > >>>>> We should dig deeper into the current Java version of
>> Flink
>> > > > > users. At
>> > > > > > > >>>>> least make sure Java 8 is not a mainstream version.
>> > > > > > > >>>>>
>> > > > > > > >>>>> Receiving this signal, the user may be unhappy because
>> his
>> > > > > > > application
>> > > > > > > >>>>> may be all on Java 8. Upgrading is a big job, after all,
>> > many
>> > > > > systems
>> > > > > > > >>>>> have not been upgraded yet. (Like you said, HBase and
>> Hive)
>> > > > > > > >>>>>
>> > > > > > > >>>>> In my opinion, it is too early to deprecate support for
>> > Java 8.
>> > > > > We
>> > > > > > > >>>>> should wait for a safer point in time.
>> > > > > > > >>>>>
>> > > > > > > >>>>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 11:45 PM Ingo Bürk <
>> > ingo@ververica.com
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > > > >>>>>> Hi,
>> > > > > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > > > > >>>>>> also a +1 from me because of everything Chesnay already
>> > said.
>> > > > > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > > > > >>>>>> Ingo
>> > > > > > > >>>>>>
>> > > > > > > >>>>>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 4:41 PM Martijn Visser <
>> > > > > > > >>> martijn@ververica.com>
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Marios
>>
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Deprecate Java 8 support
Posted by Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org>.
That is correct, yes. During the deprecation period we won't seen any
improvements on our end.
Something that I could envision is that the docker images will default
to Java 11 after a while, and that we put a bigger emphasis on
performance on Java 11+ than on Java 8.
On 01/12/2021 02:31, wenlong.lwl wrote:
> hi, @Chesnay Schepler <ma...@apache.org> would you explain
> more about what would happen when deprecating Java 8, but still
> support it. IMO, if we still generate packages based on Java 8 which
> seems to be a consensus, we still can not take the advantages you
> mentioned even if we announce that Java 8 support is deprecated.
>
>
> Best,
> Wenlong
>
> On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 at 17:22, Marios Trivyzas <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> +1 from me as well on the Java 8 deprecation!
> It's important to make the users aware, and "force" them but also the
> communities of other
> related projects (like the aforementioned Hive) to start preparing
> for the
> future drop of Java 8
> support and the upgrade to the recent stable versions.
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 11:15 PM Thomas Weise <th...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > +1 for Java 8 deprecation. It's an important signal for users and we
> > need to give sufficient time to adopt. Thanks Chesnay for
> starting the
> > discussion! Maybe user@ can be included into this discussion?
> >
> > Thomas
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 6:49 AM Becket Qin
> <be...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks for raising the discussion, Chesnay.
> > >
> > > I think it is OK to deprecate Java 8 to let the users know
> that Java 11
> > > migration should be put into the schedule. However, According
> to some of
> > > the statistics of the Java version adoption[1], a large number
> of users
> > are
> > > still using Java 8 in production. I doubt that Java 8 users
> will drop to
> > a
> > > negligible amount within the next 2 - 3 Flink releases. I
> would suggest
> > > making the time to drop Java 8 support flexible.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
> > >
> > > [1] https://www.infoq.com/news/2021/07/snyk-jvm-2021/
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 5:09 AM Till Rohrmann
> <tr...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > +1 for the deprecation and reaching out to the user ML to
> ask for
> > feedback
> > > > from our users. Thanks for driving this Chesnay!
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Till
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 10:15 AM Roman Khachatryan
> <ro...@apache.org>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > The situation is probably a bit different now compared to the
> > previous
> > > > > upgrade: some users might be using Amazon Coretto (or
> other builds)
> > > > > which have longer support.
> > > > >
> > > > > Still +1 for deprecation to trigger migration, and thanks for
> > bringing
> > > > > this up!
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Roman
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 10:09 AM Arvid Heise
> <ar...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > +1 to deprecate Java 8, so we can hopefully incorporate
> the module
> > > > > concept
> > > > > > in Flink.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 9:49 AM Chesnay Schepler <
> > chesnay@apache.org>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Users can already use APIs from Java 8/11.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 25/11/2021 09:35, Francesco Guardiani wrote:
> > > > > > > > +1 with what both Ingo and Matthias sad, personally,
> I cannot
> > wait
> > > > to
> > > > > > > start using some of
> > > > > > > > the APIs introduced in Java 9. And I'm pretty sure
> that's the
> > same
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > our users as well.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Tuesday, 23 November 2021 13:35:07 CET Ingo Bürk
> wrote:
> > > > > > > >> Hi everyone,
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> continued support for Java 8 can also create
> project risks,
> > e.g.
> > > > if
> > > > > a
> > > > > > > >> vulnerability arises in Flink's dependencies and we
> cannot
> > upgrade
> > > > > them
> > > > > > > >> because they no longer support Java 8. Some
> projects already
> > > > started
> > > > > > > >> deprecating support as well, like Kafka, and other
> projects
> > will
> > > > > likely
> > > > > > > >> follow.
> > > > > > > >> Let's also keep in mind that the proposal here is
> not to drop
> > > > > support
> > > > > > > right
> > > > > > > >> away, but to deprecate it, send the message, and
> motivate
> > users to
> > > > > start
> > > > > > > >> migrating. Delaying this process could ironically
> mean users
> > have
> > > > > less
> > > > > > > time
> > > > > > > >> to prepare for it.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Ingo
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 8:54 AM Matthias Pohl <
> > > > > matthias@ververica.com>
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>> Thanks for constantly driving these maintenance
> topics,
> > Chesnay.
> > > > +1
> > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > >>> my
> > > > > > > >>> side for deprecating Java 8. I see the point
> Jingsong is
> > raising.
> > > > > But I
> > > > > > > >>> agree with what David already said here.
> Deprecating the Java
> > > > > version
> > > > > > > is a
> > > > > > > >>> tool to make users aware of it (same as starting this
> > discussion
> > > > > > > thread).
> > > > > > > >>> If there's no major opposition against deprecating
> it in the
> > > > > community
> > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > >>> should move forward in this regard to make the
> users who do
> > not
> > > > > > > >>> regularly browse the mailing list aware of it.
> That said,
> > > > > deprecating
> > > > > > > Java
> > > > > > > >>> 8 in 1.15 does not necessarily mean that it is
> dropped in
> > 1.16.
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> Best,
> > > > > > > >>> Matthias
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 8:46 AM David Morávek <
> > dmvk@apache.org>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>> Thank you Chesnay for starting the discussion!
> This will
> > > > generate
> > > > > bit
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > >>> a
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>>> work for some users, but it's a good thing to
> keep moving
> > the
> > > > > project
> > > > > > > >>>> forward. Big +1 for this.
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> Jingsong:
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> Receiving this signal, the user may be unhappy
> because his
> > > > > application
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>> may be all on Java 8. Upgrading is a big job,
> after all,
> > many
> > > > > systems
> > > > > > > >>>>> have not been upgraded yet. (Like you said,
> HBase and Hive)
> > > > > > > >>>> The whole point of deprecation is to raise
> awareness, that
> > this
> > > > > will
> > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > >>>> happening eventually and users should take some
> steps to
> > address
> > > > > this
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > >>>> medium-term. If I understand Chesnay correctly,
> we'd still
> > keep
> > > > > Java 8
> > > > > > > >>>> around for quite some time to give users enough
> time to
> > upgrade,
> > > > > but
> > > > > > > >>>> without raising awareness we'd fight the very
> same argument
> > > > later
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > >>> time.
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>>> All of the prerequisites from 3rd party projects
> for both
> > HBase
> > > > > [1]
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > >>>> Hive [2] to fully support Java 11 have been
> completed, so
> > the
> > > > > ball is
> > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > >>>> their side and there doesn't seem to be much
> activity.
> > > > Generating
> > > > > bit
> > > > > > > >>> more
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>>> pressure on these efforts might be a good thing.
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> It would be great to identify some of these users
> and learn
> > bit
> > > > > more
> > > > > > > >>> about
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>>> their situation. Are they keeping up with latest
> Flink
> > > > > developments or
> > > > > > > >>> are
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>>> they lagging behind (this would also give them
> way more
> > time for
> > > > > > > >>>> eventual
> > > > > > > >>>> upgrade)?
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> [1] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HBASE-22972
> > > > > > > >>>> [2] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HIVE-22415
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> Best,
> > > > > > > >>>> D.
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 3:08 AM Jingsong Li <
> > > > > jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>>> Hi Chesnay,
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>> Thanks for bringing this for discussion.
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>> We should dig deeper into the current Java
> version of Flink
> > > > > users. At
> > > > > > > >>>>> least make sure Java 8 is not a mainstream version.
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>> Receiving this signal, the user may be unhappy
> because his
> > > > > > > application
> > > > > > > >>>>> may be all on Java 8. Upgrading is a big job,
> after all,
> > many
> > > > > systems
> > > > > > > >>>>> have not been upgraded yet. (Like you said,
> HBase and Hive)
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>> In my opinion, it is too early to deprecate
> support for
> > Java 8.
> > > > > We
> > > > > > > >>>>> should wait for a safer point in time.
> > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 11:45 PM Ingo Bürk <
> > ingo@ververica.com
> > > > >
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>>>> Hi,
> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>> also a +1 from me because of everything Chesnay
> already
> > said.
> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>> Ingo
> > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > >>>>>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 4:41 PM Martijn Visser <
> > > > > > > >>> martijn@ververica.com>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
>
>
> --
> Marios
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Deprecate Java 8 support
Posted by Jing Ge <ji...@ververica.com>.
Thanks Chesnay for bringing this up for discussion. +1 for Java 8
deprecation. Every decision has pros and cons. All concerns mentioned
previously are fair enough. I think that the active support for Java 8
ending in 4 months will have an impact on the projects that still stick
with Java 8 and on Flink users too. Flink should not be the last one to do
the migration. It's a good timing to move forward.
Best regards
Jing
On Wed, Dec 1, 2021 at 2:31 AM wenlong.lwl <we...@gmail.com> wrote:
> hi, @Chesnay Schepler <ch...@apache.org> would you explain more about
> what would happen when deprecating Java 8, but still support it. IMO, if we
> still generate packages based on Java 8 which seems to be a consensus, we
> still can not take the advantages you mentioned even if we announce that
> Java 8 support is deprecated.
>
>
> Best,
> Wenlong
>
> On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 at 17:22, Marios Trivyzas <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > +1 from me as well on the Java 8 deprecation!
> > It's important to make the users aware, and "force" them but also the
> > communities of other
> > related projects (like the aforementioned Hive) to start preparing for
> the
> > future drop of Java 8
> > support and the upgrade to the recent stable versions.
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 28, 2021 at 11:15 PM Thomas Weise <th...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > +1 for Java 8 deprecation. It's an important signal for users and we
> > > need to give sufficient time to adopt. Thanks Chesnay for starting the
> > > discussion! Maybe user@ can be included into this discussion?
> > >
> > > Thomas
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 6:49 AM Becket Qin <be...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for raising the discussion, Chesnay.
> > > >
> > > > I think it is OK to deprecate Java 8 to let the users know that Java
> 11
> > > > migration should be put into the schedule. However, According to some
> > of
> > > > the statistics of the Java version adoption[1], a large number of
> users
> > > are
> > > > still using Java 8 in production. I doubt that Java 8 users will drop
> > to
> > > a
> > > > negligible amount within the next 2 - 3 Flink releases. I would
> suggest
> > > > making the time to drop Java 8 support flexible.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Jiangjie (Becket) Qin
> > > >
> > > > [1] https://www.infoq.com/news/2021/07/snyk-jvm-2021/
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Nov 26, 2021 at 5:09 AM Till Rohrmann <tr...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > +1 for the deprecation and reaching out to the user ML to ask for
> > > feedback
> > > > > from our users. Thanks for driving this Chesnay!
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > Till
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 10:15 AM Roman Khachatryan <
> roman@apache.org
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > The situation is probably a bit different now compared to the
> > > previous
> > > > > > upgrade: some users might be using Amazon Coretto (or other
> builds)
> > > > > > which have longer support.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Still +1 for deprecation to trigger migration, and thanks for
> > > bringing
> > > > > > this up!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > Roman
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 10:09 AM Arvid Heise <ar...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > +1 to deprecate Java 8, so we can hopefully incorporate the
> > module
> > > > > > concept
> > > > > > > in Flink.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 25, 2021 at 9:49 AM Chesnay Schepler <
> > > chesnay@apache.org>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Users can already use APIs from Java 8/11.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 25/11/2021 09:35, Francesco Guardiani wrote:
> > > > > > > > > +1 with what both Ingo and Matthias sad, personally, I
> cannot
> > > wait
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > start using some of
> > > > > > > > > the APIs introduced in Java 9. And I'm pretty sure that's
> the
> > > same
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > our users as well.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, 23 November 2021 13:35:07 CET Ingo Bürk wrote:
> > > > > > > > >> Hi everyone,
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> continued support for Java 8 can also create project
> risks,
> > > e.g.
> > > > > if
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > >> vulnerability arises in Flink's dependencies and we cannot
> > > upgrade
> > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > >> because they no longer support Java 8. Some projects
> already
> > > > > started
> > > > > > > > >> deprecating support as well, like Kafka, and other
> projects
> > > will
> > > > > > likely
> > > > > > > > >> follow.
> > > > > > > > >> Let's also keep in mind that the proposal here is not to
> > drop
> > > > > > support
> > > > > > > > right
> > > > > > > > >> away, but to deprecate it, send the message, and motivate
> > > users to
> > > > > > start
> > > > > > > > >> migrating. Delaying this process could ironically mean
> users
> > > have
> > > > > > less
> > > > > > > > time
> > > > > > > > >> to prepare for it.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Ingo
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 8:54 AM Matthias Pohl <
> > > > > > matthias@ververica.com>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >>> Thanks for constantly driving these maintenance topics,
> > > Chesnay.
> > > > > +1
> > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > >>> my
> > > > > > > > >>> side for deprecating Java 8. I see the point Jingsong is
> > > raising.
> > > > > > But I
> > > > > > > > >>> agree with what David already said here. Deprecating the
> > Java
> > > > > > version
> > > > > > > > is a
> > > > > > > > >>> tool to make users aware of it (same as starting this
> > > discussion
> > > > > > > > thread).
> > > > > > > > >>> If there's no major opposition against deprecating it in
> > the
> > > > > > community
> > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > >>> should move forward in this regard to make the users who
> do
> > > not
> > > > > > > > >>> regularly browse the mailing list aware of it. That said,
> > > > > > deprecating
> > > > > > > > Java
> > > > > > > > >>> 8 in 1.15 does not necessarily mean that it is dropped in
> > > 1.16.
> > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > >>> Best,
> > > > > > > > >>> Matthias
> > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > >>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 8:46 AM David Morávek <
> > > dmvk@apache.org>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >>>> Thank you Chesnay for starting the discussion! This will
> > > > > generate
> > > > > > bit
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > >>> a
> > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > >>>> work for some users, but it's a good thing to keep
> moving
> > > the
> > > > > > project
> > > > > > > > >>>> forward. Big +1 for this.
> > > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > > >>>> Jingsong:
> > > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > > >>>> Receiving this signal, the user may be unhappy because
> his
> > > > > > application
> > > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > > >>>>> may be all on Java 8. Upgrading is a big job, after
> all,
> > > many
> > > > > > systems
> > > > > > > > >>>>> have not been upgraded yet. (Like you said, HBase and
> > Hive)
> > > > > > > > >>>> The whole point of deprecation is to raise awareness,
> that
> > > this
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > >>>> happening eventually and users should take some steps to
> > > address
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > >>>> medium-term. If I understand Chesnay correctly, we'd
> still
> > > keep
> > > > > > Java 8
> > > > > > > > >>>> around for quite some time to give users enough time to
> > > upgrade,
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > >>>> without raising awareness we'd fight the very same
> > argument
> > > > > later
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > >>> time.
> > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > >>>> All of the prerequisites from 3rd party projects for
> both
> > > HBase
> > > > > > [1]
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > >>>> Hive [2] to fully support Java 11 have been completed,
> so
> > > the
> > > > > > ball is
> > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > >>>> their side and there doesn't seem to be much activity.
> > > > > Generating
> > > > > > bit
> > > > > > > > >>> more
> > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > >>>> pressure on these efforts might be a good thing.
> > > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > > >>>> It would be great to identify some of these users and
> > learn
> > > bit
> > > > > > more
> > > > > > > > >>> about
> > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > >>>> their situation. Are they keeping up with latest Flink
> > > > > > developments or
> > > > > > > > >>> are
> > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > >>>> they lagging behind (this would also give them way more
> > > time for
> > > > > > > > >>>> eventual
> > > > > > > > >>>> upgrade)?
> > > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > > >>>> [1] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HBASE-22972
> > > > > > > > >>>> [2] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/HIVE-22415
> > > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > > >>>> Best,
> > > > > > > > >>>> D.
> > > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > > >>>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 3:08 AM Jingsong Li <
> > > > > > jingsonglee0@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > > >>>> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >>>>> Hi Chesnay,
> > > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > > >>>>> Thanks for bringing this for discussion.
> > > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > > >>>>> We should dig deeper into the current Java version of
> > Flink
> > > > > > users. At
> > > > > > > > >>>>> least make sure Java 8 is not a mainstream version.
> > > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > > >>>>> Receiving this signal, the user may be unhappy because
> > his
> > > > > > > > application
> > > > > > > > >>>>> may be all on Java 8. Upgrading is a big job, after
> all,
> > > many
> > > > > > systems
> > > > > > > > >>>>> have not been upgraded yet. (Like you said, HBase and
> > Hive)
> > > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > > >>>>> In my opinion, it is too early to deprecate support for
> > > Java 8.
> > > > > > We
> > > > > > > > >>>>> should wait for a safer point in time.
> > > > > > > > >>>>>
> > > > > > > > >>>>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 11:45 PM Ingo Bürk <
> > > ingo@ververica.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >>>>>> Hi,
> > > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > > >>>>>> also a +1 from me because of everything Chesnay
> already
> > > said.
> > > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > > >>>>>> Ingo
> > > > > > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > > > > >>>>>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2021 at 4:41 PM Martijn Visser <
> > > > > > > > >>> martijn@ververica.com>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Marios
> >
>